Building a Business at the Intersection of Art and Commerce

Today’s guest is an artist, musician and entrepreneur who made his first record when he was 12, began playing in clubs when he was 14, and started his own music publishing company at 18. Yeah.

My guest’s passion for music and technology led him to found the music licensing firm Rumblefish in his college dorm room. That company quickly achieved the industry’s first podcast license, fully automated online music licensing store, and inked a ground-breaking micro-licensing deal with YouTube.

Rumblefish became the largest music licensing company for independent music in the world and was acquired in 2014 by a private equity fund. My guest was kept on as its President and CEO to lead it into its next phase of growth.

He is a devoted member of the entrepreneurial and creative communities in the pacific northwest, as co-founder of popular guitar pedal company Spaceman, start-up accelerator Starve Ups, and TEDxPortland.

Now, let’s hack …

Paul Anthony Troiano.

In this 32-minute episode Paul Anthony Troiano and I discuss:

  • How perseverance became his greatest ally
  • Cultivating a constant process of letting go
  • Why building stuff is his perfect job
  • How he learned from the great people he surrounded himself with
  • Learning to fail fast and go faster

The Show Notes

Building a Business at the Intersection of Art and Commerce

Jonny Nastor: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at

Voiceover: Welcome to Hack the Entrepreneur, the show which reveals the fears, habits and inner battles behind big-name entrepreneurs and those on their way to joining them. Now, here is your host, Jon Nastor.

Jonny Nastor: Welcome back to Hack the Entrepreneur. I’m so glad you decided to join me today. I’m your host, Jon Nastor, but you can call me ‘Jonny.’

Today’s guest is an artist, musician, and entrepreneur who made his first record when he was 12, began playing in clubs when he was 14, and started his own music publishing company at 18. My guest’s passion for music and technology led him to found music licensing firm Rumblefish in his college dorm room.

The company quickly achieved the industry’s first podcast license, created a fully automated online music licensing store, and inked a groundbreaking micro-licensing deal with YouTube. Rumblefish became the largest music licensing company for independent music in the world and was acquired in 2014 by a private equity firm. My guest was kept on as president and CEO to lead it into the next phase of growth.

He’s a devoted member of the entrepreneurial and creative communities in the Pacific Northwest as the co-founder of popular guitar pedal company Spaceman Effects, startup accelerator Starve Ups, and TEDxPortland. Now, let’s hack Paul Anthony Troiano.

Today’s episode of Hack the Entrepreneur is brought to you by The Showrunner Podcasting Course, your step-by-step guide for developing, launching, and running a remarkable show just like this one that build an audience in the age of on-demand audio content. We are reopening the course for one week only on June 25th. The only way to get in is to be on the list. Join today by going to Showrunner.FM, and drop your email into the signup box.

Welcome back to Hack the Entrepreneur. Today we have a very special guest. Paul, welcome to the show.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Jonny Nastor: It’s all my pleasure, Paul. Paul, let’s jump straight into this first question.

Paul, as an entrepreneur, can you tell me, what is the one thing that you do that you feel has been the biggest contributor to your successes so far?

How Perseverance Became His Greatest Ally

Paul Anthony Troiano: Not giving up. It’s really easy to give in to the various pressures when you’re an entrepreneur. In any venture, there’s family pressures, economic pressures, business model pressures, financing from investors, or not getting finance from investors — you name it. I think perseverance is your greatest ally, especially in the early days, because I think you’re a fool as an entrepreneur to assume you have it all figured out when you start.

Your business plan is guaranteed to cost three times as much as you thought it would and take five times as long. Above and beyond that, if you don’t have perseverance in your corner, you’re not going to make it. I think the most important thing that I’ve done as an entrepreneur, if I just had to pick one thing, is definitely that: staying in the game.

Jonny Nastor: Did you always have that in you, that idea of, “I’ve just got to put my head down and keep going,” or is this something that’s evolved within you?

Paul Anthony Troiano: I’m really stubborn.

Jonny Nastor: We all are.

Paul Anthony Troiano: I’m always been stubborn, and I think I just learned as I got older to take that negative element of my personality and capitalize on it as an entrepreneur.

Jonny Nastor: Excellent.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah.

Jonny Nastor: I like that. All right, there seems to be a time in every entrepreneur’s life when they realize one of two things. Either they have this calling to make something big and make a difference in the world, or what seems to mostly be the case, is they simply cannot work for somebody else. Paul, can you tell me which side of the fence you fall on and when you discovered this about yourself?

Paul Anthony Troiano: That’s an interesting way to put it. I never thought of it as an either/or, but I’ve been fired from every job I ever had before Rumblefish. Maybe that answers the question.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, it might. You simply cannot stay employed anywhere else.

Paul Anthony Troiano: “I’m unemployable. Therefore I’m an entrepreneur.” I flipped burgers. I managed apartment complexes. I brought audio/visual equipment to classrooms at the University of Oregon.

What always happened in those situations was … I remember one time that really stood out. My manager was watching me when I was washing the side of a building that I was the assistant manager for at the University of Oregon.

I got a call from a radio station, and they said, “Hey, Sarah McLachlan is in town. We need someone to come and produce some acoustic singles, and she just won a Grammy,” and they said, “Can you come?” I said, “Sure, when?” they said, “Right now.” I literally dropped the brush I was scrubbing the building with, got in my car, and drove away with my manager staring at me like, “What does this guy think he’s doing?”

It’s like a hundred versions of that, which led to my imminent termination in all my different jobs. I guess I was just always drawn to music and art, and that’s how it turned out for me.

Jonny Nastor: Was it worth it for the Sarah McLachlan session?

Paul Anthony Troiano: It was totally worth it.

Jonny Nastor: Yes, that’s the answer I wanted.

Paul Anthony Troiano: They were all worth it. It was worth getting fired by Donna from Hammy’s because I left my burger-flipping station to do this music thing. It was all worth it.

Jonny Nastor: You rarely regret the things that you do, it seems. You always regret the things you don’t do, so that’s it right there.

Paul Anthony Troiano: I regret a lot of things I’ve done like right after.

Jonny Nastor: Oh really?

Paul Anthony Troiano: But you can’t hold on to it, right? You got to move forward and learn from it and make the best of it.

Jonny Nastor: Exactly, but if you were still sitting here talking and being like, “I could have produced Sarah McLachlan that one time, but I just kept painting.” That wouldn’t have been cool.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah, that would have made the bar-talk conversation, I guess. Yeah, totally.

Jonny Nastor: Exactly. So, you’re a terrible employee. How does this work for you now being a boss and having employees? Is there anything that you’ve taken from what you totally just couldn’t work with or didn’t like as being an employee that you’ve decided to do differently now that you’re the one in charge?

Paul Anthony Troiano: A good question. I realized that I was a terrible employee because I always have the wrong jobs. It’s not that I’m a terrible employee across the board. I think entrepreneurs are terrible employees for companies when they’re punching the clock or they don’t feel like they’re making a difference in the world. Or they just see this problem that needs to be solved, and no one is solving it, or the people who are solving it are solving it either ineffectively or too slow or thinking small.

I figured out that actually, I am a really great employee. And oddly enough, now that Rumblefish was acquired, I actually am an employee of the organization. Once you’re doing what you feel like you’re meant to do, then it’s not a job.

It feels like you’re painting a picture, and only you can see the entire picture laid out on the full canvas, and you’re forced to go about it one pixel at a time. It doesn’t feel like a job that way. It feels more like I have the privilege of coordinating a group of incredible people to paint this picture and achieve that objective.

For me, that’s always been related to music and artists and helping artists get compensated for their work and helping creators use music to make better movies and videos.

Jonny Nastor: Wow. You are an employee now, and it was that you didn’t have the right job. I like that. Is there a chance that you could have found the right job before, and then Rumblefish would never exist if you didn’t come up with it, though? Isn’t that interesting?

Paul Anthony Troiano: That is.

Jonny Nastor: It helps a lot of people.

Why Building Stuff Is His Perfect Job

Paul Anthony Troiano: The right job for me was, I learned about myself as an entrepreneur that I’m a builder, that I’m happy when I’m building. I was the president of my grade school. I was the president of my fraternity. I run my Burning Man camp. I like to build stuff and group people together and take an idea and make into reality.

The right job for me is to build stuff. And that could be a music company. It could be a camp. It could be whatever, but that’s the role that I’m comfortable in. The more ambitious the idea and the more it’s centralized around art and music, the more excited about it I get. That’s how I think of it, at least.

Jonny Nastor: Nice. You’re a builder, and your one thing is perseverance and not giving up. All the experts now talk about the 80/20 rule in business and in life in general. I do 20 percent, and you’re going to get 80 percent of the results. Do what you’re good at. Delegate the rest.

Paul, can you tell me something in your business that you are absolutely not good at?

Cultivating a Constant Process of Letting Go

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah, where do I begin? This has been from when you conceive the business until any number of milestones down the road. It’s a constant process of letting go of things that you’re bad at and also things that you’re good at, because you find people who are great at it. I always feel like the ultimate success of an entrepreneur is to surround themselves with people who are great at what they’re bad at. I say that a lot.

That’s what you constantly searching for. Things that I’m bad at — I’m not a great operations person. I’m not an engineer. I don’t understand code. I don’t understand high finance. I understand most finance. A lot of things that have to do with HR and the nuts and bolts of, in essence, if the train is running on time or not.

How He Learned from the Great People He Surrounded Himself With

Paul Anthony Troiano: My strength as an operator, my strength is building the new product, sales, and seeing where the market is going to be in five, six, seven years and most of the times, being correct. Those are my strengths. And building a culture. I’m great at building a culture. All the other things need to learn from hiring great people that you can surround yourself with. You turn them loose, and you watch and learn from them.

Jonny Nastor: Do you remember, with Rumblefish, the first employees or people you got to hire?

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah, Tanya Ortiz was our first employee.

Jonny Nastor: Nice, and what did she do? I just want to know, what’s the first thing that you were like, “Okay, we have to get somebody else to do this, because I can’t do this.”

Paul Anthony Troiano: That’s a good question. I wish it were that simple. We had an intern army. I started the company in my dorm room at the University of Oregon. Our first several years, I had 10 to 15 interns that were earning four credits that were working for Rumblefish for free, and so they did all sorts of things. They did anything that needed to get done, and it could have been helping with scores. It could have been finding bands that we were placing in films. It could have been literally anything.

We started with an intern army, and then shortly thereafter, the people that I hired to help out were managing the catalog. They were a bookkeeper to help with the financials, anything in the category that I’m bad at, which I generally say is keeping the trains running on time and being operationally excellent. I’m good at growing, not at managing.

Jonny Nastor: Was it your idea to get this intern army?

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah.

Jonny Nastor: That’s brilliant. That’s amazing.

Paul Anthony Troiano: I went to the career development center at the University of Oregon and sat down with them as — well, my name is Paul Anthony Troiano, but a lot of people call me Paul Anthony — so when I sat down with them to ask them questions as Paul Anthony, the owner of this business, they didn’t understand that I was a student. They started telling me, “How many interns do you need?” and “They can get four credits,” and “If you put program together, we can staff it up.” I was like, “How many can I get?” “As many as you need.”

I was like, “Wow, free labor. Great.” I had a large intern army, and I may have also been an intern for Rumblefish.

Jonny Nastor: You’re not sure?

Paul Anthony Troiano: Eight credits, but whatever.

Jonny Nastor: Wow, so you are — you’re a builder. You didn’t look at this idea of wanting to start Rumblefish and be like, “I don’t have money to hire employees. I don’t have people.” You just figured out a way to do it.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah, that’s the perseverance part, right? If you really want to do it, you can do it. You’ve just got to figure out how to make it happen.

Jonny Nastor: Okay. I understand you have to make things happen, but as you’re making these things happen, as you grew it from an intern army to a company that later got acquired, there’s probably things that went wrong. Because as human beings, and that just gets pulled over to when you turn into an entrepreneur as well, one of our greatest struggles, it seems, is the fear of being wrong and making a mistake.

Paul, could you walk us through how to be wrong in something that you thought was the right decision in your business? You pushed the business in that direction, and then the feedback comes from either the market or somewhere else, and says, “No, Paul, this isn’t right.” How do you get over that and work on?

Learning to Fail Fast and Go Faster

Paul Anthony Troiano: I guess, early on, I was afraid of failing and was desperate to have any sort of success. Small successes were very intoxicating, because you’re like, “Oh wow, this one person likes this idea, and I’ve got one client.” I think that small successes are very distracting. If you want the big success and you’re convinced that it’s the right answer, then failure really is a prerequisite for success, right?

We’re going to fail. How do you ride a bike the first time perfectly? It just doesn’t happen, right? Over the years, I’ve changed my philosophy on failure to wanting to fail fast and fail a lot to gain that experience, to improve quickly, to be successful. We really have thoughts here around that at Rumblefish. It’s like, “Fail fast, go faster.”

If you fail fast, you can learn and improve and really embrace that, and if you empower your team, especially to be brave and embrace failure so that that’s a step towards success, then they’ll trust their convictions and execute on what they are passionate about. Many times, that’s the right answer anyway, and you don’t fail.

Our mindset on failure, mine specifically over the years, has really flip-flopped. Because if you only go where you get yeses and run from failure, then you’re going to build somebody else’s business, what everyone else said ‘yes’ to, which wasn’t, probably, your idea.

Jonny Nastor: True – “fail fast, go faster.” Your idea of failure has changed or evolved over time. I almost think of it as a muscle. The more you get into things and the more you make mistakes, the easier they are to deal with?

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah, like today, one of the businesses I’ve involved in, we were going over some pretty in-depth financials. If I rewind the clock on myself like seven years, six or seven years, I was taken aside after a board meeting by my mentor, and he literally told me, “If you don’t figure out how financials work, we’re all going to leave, because you don’t get it, man. And you’re a drummer that went to music school that kind of went to business school after that, that got expelled from college, that doesn’t understand financials. So you really need to study up, man.”

So I did. I put a lot of time, effort, and energy into it, and now I really understand that landscape — not as well as a CPA or a great CFO or anything. You learn those things by failing fast, so my tactic was to go back to the board after that and put my hand up and say, “Hi. I’m Paul. I’m bad at financials. I need help, and can you all help me?”

The path that sent me down was learning from these incredible entrepreneurs who are on my board who ran multi-billion dollar businesses: how they look at a PNL, how they think about finance, how they dissect financials in their companies. It was an incredible experience.

I think you’re right. It’s just like a muscle. You’ve got to dig in and tackle those things.

Jonny Nastor: There’s something that I want to touch on, but I can’t gloss over the fact that you’re a drummer.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah.

Jonny Nastor: I’m a drummer. That’s awesome.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah, I play a purple DW five-piece kit with Zildjian symbols.

Jonny Nastor: Nice. I play a black Pearl with Sabians sometimes.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Okay, I’ll forgive you.

Jonny Nastor: I’m Canadian. I’m Canadian! It’s a Canadian cymbal, come on.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Okay, that’s good.

Jonny Nastor: I wonder, with this financials thing — you come from arts, you come from music. There’s a lot of people that struggle with not just the financials, but even thinking that that is necessary, that the art should rule the business. And then their businesses never work.

Was there an internal struggle at all when your mentor was like, “Come on, man, you’ve got to learn financials if you want to do this.” Were you like, “No, I don’t. I don’t want to get into that part of it?”

The Yin-Yang Relationship between Art and Commerce

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah, I guess I’ve been immune to that gene that lots of artists have about having regret for charging for art. Because to me, it’s very simple. There’s a yin-yang relationship with art and commerce.

I feel like the role that Rumblefish has played that’s resulted in many, many millions of dollars in royalties for artists is that we translate art and commerce to each other. We help the artist understand the value of income, and we help the businesses and the video creators that want to use music understand the value of paying for it and getting them on the same page. It’s literally like we translate art and business back and forth. I’ve always seen the value of that. I’m very proud of the fact.

Once you’ve lived it — like, we’ve been sending royalties to artists for 16 or more years — then you get these phone calls. We pay royalties quarterly. For the two weeks after we send those royalty checks out, I get calls from bands on tour that fixed their van, people that gotten custody of their kids back because their checks got big enough, new recording consoles paid for the run of the CDs — or I guess that’s dating us, right — paid for something that’s not old like a CD.

You get these incredibly compassionate stories, and that’s when you see the real value of what you’re doing. That’s why I think the financials are totally worth it, because you see the value of getting that nailed.

Because that’s really what so many artists don’t have nailed, is how to charge for what they do and how to turn that into more art. We write them checks. They make more art, and that’s a virtuous cycle. I knew that that was the payoff, and honestly, the only reason why I hadn’t gotten into financials is because I didn’t know how.

That board member pulling me aside gave me permission to be vulnerable and say, “Okay, I guess everyone knows my faking it isn’t working at all.” They were totally down to help me, so I took advantage of that.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, I like that. I like that. And “translating art and commerce” — that’s very cool, and the benefit that you are providing to so many artists is amazing. So that’s very cool.

We’re going to end on something that I’m calling ‘the entrepreneurial gap.’ As entrepreneurs, as we build things — and you are a builder, you’ve said — we’re always looking ahead one month, three months, six months, a year, three years, 10 years, whatever.

As we set goals, we almost get to these goals — we probably don’t even hit them — and we’ve already set five or ten loftier ones into the future. We don’t often stop where we are today, turn around, and look at where we’ve come, what we’ve come through, what we’ve learned, and what we’ve built.

You’ve done — from the artist side, from the music side, from the production side, to the entrepreneurial side — what look like some really impressive things, Paul. I would love it if you would stop right now, turn around, and look behind you, where you’ve come from, what you’ve done, and tell me how you feel about it.

Paul Anthony Troiano: That’s very flattering. I appreciate the kind words. How I feel about it … Part of being an entrepreneur, I think, is being able to hold multiple scenarios in your head simultaneously. For one, I’m very proud of the fact that I’m very proud of what I’ve done, and I simultaneously am very unimpressed by it.

Because that’s what being an entrepreneur is all about, right? It’s moving forward, and I’m very grateful for all the people that I’ve worked with. They’ve really changed my life, and I’ve done my best to help improve theirs.

It’s interesting, right. When we sold the company, and when I co-founded Spaceman, and when you get some crazy guitarist that you’d never imagine to play those pedals to call and say, “Come to the concert and hang out, because we love your pedals.”

It’s the amazing things that happen along the way. You do really savor those, but they’re almost always anti-climatic because of the adrenaline-junkiness of being an entrepreneur and saying, “Yeah, that’s awesome. But I had this idea three years ago, and now it finally happened, and it’s so over, it’s so old. Like, a new thing is the next three-year thing.”

I’m humbled by my experiences that I’ve had, and I can’t wait for what’s next. I guess that’s how I feel about it.

Jonny Nastor: Very cool, very cool. You’re right. We always are — and I think that’s why I’m sort of dealing with this and trying to get people’s perspective — because these things, big amazing things that five years ago, if you knew Rumblefish was going to be acquired, you’d be shocked, probably, but now it’s into the next zone.

Thanks, Paul, so much for joining me today. We’ve talked about your business in passing. Can you specifically tell the listener where they can go find out about you and about your business?

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah, so if you want to find out about me, look me up on LinkedIn, and I’m under ‘Paul Anthony Troiano.’ And Rumblefish is Rumblefish is a music micro-licensing business, and we help video creators better tell their stories with music while compensating artists for their art. So what that really means is we help video creators put lots of music in their videos that would otherwise be really difficult for them to do because music rights are so challenging.

We’re removing all of the friction between video creators and music rights with all of our licensing expertise and all of our technological expertise. We’ve licensed almost a hundred million songs into videos, and we do another 150,000 to 200,000 songs every day, so it’s starting to work.

We make sure that artists gets paid lots of royalties so that they can make more music, and if you are a musician or you’re a filmmaker, check us out. We’d love to work with you.

Jonny Nastor: That’s awesome. And if you’re a guitar player and want to check out the pedals, it’s Spaceman Effects.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Yeah, if you play guitar and you play bass and you want a secret weapon that melts faces, then go to Spaceman Effects and find something there.

All of our pedals are limited edition, so anything that you get, we’ll run out. You won’t see anybody else with it on their pedal board. It’s a pretty awesome product, and they sell out quick when we release them. They sell like concert tickets less than pedals, so you’ve got to get on it and pick the one you like. They’re also on eBay as well. Lots of people resell them.

Jonny Nastor: Very cool:, Paul on LinkedIn, and I will link to all three of those in the show notes so they’re easy to find. Please track down Paul. Tell him you heard him, and have a conversation with him on LinkedIn.

Paul, thank you so much again for joining me. I truly, truly appreciate it. Please keep doing what you’re doing, because it’s making a huge impact in the world, especially for artists. Keep doing what you’re doing man. It’s awesome to watch.

Paul Anthony Troiano: Thanks a lot, brother. I appreciate it.

Jonny Nastor: Paul, thank you so much for the conversation. That was a lot of fun. It was inspiring, and the things you’ve accomplished so far and the things that you are going to accomplish still are amazing. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to stop by and chat with me. That was a lot of fun.

I loved the correlation of art and commerce and bringing the two together. I’m a musician — well, I’m a drummer — and it’s a tough thing. It’s a tough thing, a lot of times, for musicians to want to bring commerce into it. Paul has not only done it for himself, but now, with Rumblefish, he’s doing it for thousands of independent artists, and it’s amazing.

Paul’s got a great grasp on business and on life, and during this conversation, he said a lot of smart things. Didn’t he? He did. He said a lot of smart things, but there’s that one thing — that one thing. Did you get it? Did you hear it? Let’s do it. Let’s find the hack.

Paul Anthony Troiano: I’m very proud of what I’ve done, and I simultaneously am very unimpressed by it. Because that’s what being an entrepreneur is all about, right? It’s moving forward.

Jonny Nastor: That’s the hack. Whoa. Paul, yes, thank you so much.

This works so well, because this is a brilliant answer to this question, this question about the entrepreneurial gap that I’ve been going really deep into and that I’m going to continue to go very deep into, but Paul makes a really, really good point that I want to dive into a bit.

Because it’s true. I talk about the gap, and I talk about how we’re always forward-thinking and forward-looking. That’s not the problem. I want to clarify that that isn’t the problem, and Paul gets it. The problem is that we don’t also stop and look around and look behind us and at least congratulate ourselves or be humbled, as he says, by what he’s accomplished.

Paul’s idea of an entrepreneur is the whole ‘holding multiple scenarios in your head simultaneously,’ how he’s both humbled by what he’s accomplished and at the same time unimpressed. I think that’s perfect. I think he understands the gap. You have to appreciate what you’ve accomplished no matter how small you think that might be at this point, but also unimpressed, because that what’s going to drive you forward.

That’s just brilliant, and I love it, because I’m going deep on this, and I’m pushing it. I’m not pushing the entrepreneurial gap because I think that we shouldn’t as entrepreneurs be dreamers and push ahead and always throw off your goals into the future. I think it’s absolutely necessary and key for us to do that.

At the same time, I want us to stop. I want us to close that gap between the future and today and what we did. That’s important. That’s really, really important, and I’m not going to let up on this, because I love where these question’s always going with my guest. Paul, you summarized it really well. It was just really good, and I thank you Paul, for that.

I thank you again for taking the time to stop by. That was an amazing conversation that I really, truly enjoyed. This was the first episode that I’ve recorded in another place. I’m in Vancouver. If you’re in Vancouver or you’re going to be in Vancouver this summer, hit me up Jon@HacktheEntrepreneur. I’d love to meet.

I’ve met several listeners already, and I have quite a list of other ones I get to meet, have coffee with, have ice cream with, all different things. It’s amazing. You guys are awesome, and I would love to hear from you. I’ll be here all summer. But yeah, this was the first episode, and it went a little bit longer but that conversation with Paul was definitely, definitely worth it.

If you haven’t yet — I know there’s so many of you out there and you haven’t all done it yet — go to the website, and you’ll see my pretty face right there on the right and just to the side of it, a place to put your email. Put your email in there. It’s my newsletter, once a week — that’s what you’re going to get from me.

You’ll get an email once a week written by me every Sunday afternoon. It’s the best stuff I’m working on, coming up with, what I’m going through in my business and in my life, and what I think will help you push forward, and I would love to have you on there. Plus it gives you access to me. You can reply to that first email or any email thereafter, and you have direct access to me, and my inbox.

Just do it. It’ll be fun, trust me. All right guys, thank you so much. I really, truly do appreciate you stopping by to listen, and until next time, please, keep hacking the entrepreneur.