What it Takes to Leave the Corporate World (and Not Look Back)

My guest today is the founder and CEO of Small Business Trends, an award-winning online publication, which offers breaking news and advice for small business owners.

She is a former corporate attorney that left that corporate life and founded her own company in 2003.

She is considered an authoritative voice on small business issues and has been noted and quoted in respected publications (such as the Wall Street Journal).

Her name has appeared in multiple top lists, and she was featured as one of Hubspot’s 100 Most Powerful Women on Twitter.

Now, let’s hack …

Anita Campbell.

In this 35-minute episode Anita Campbell and I discuss:

  • How sticking with things can be good for entrepreneurs
  • Why it’s necessary to measure your progress over the long-term
  • If you don’t know how to do something, don’t do it
  • Understanding that we all work for someone, whether we like it or not
  • The hard part of identifying your core competency

The Show Notes

What It Takes to Leave the Corporate World (and Not Look Back)

Voiceover: Welcome to Hack the Entrepreneur, the show which reveals the fears, habits, and inner battles behind big name entrepreneurs and those on their way to joining them. Now, here is your host, Jon Nastor.

Jonny Nastor: Welcome back to Hack the Entrepreneur. I’m so glad you decided to join me today. I’m your host, Jon Nastor, but you can call me Jonny.

My guest today is the founder and CEO of Small Business Trends, an award-winning online publication which offers breaking news and advice for small business owners.

My guest is a former corporate attorney and general counsel who went on to become CEO of a Bell & Howell tech subsidiary until she founded Small Business Trends in 2003.

She’s considered an authoritative voice on small business issues and has been noted and quoted in respected publications, such as The Wall Street Journal. Her name has appeared in multiple top lists, and she was featured as one of HubSpot’s 100 Most Powerful Women on Twitter.

Now, let’s hack Anita Campbell.

Today’s episode of Hack the Entrepreneur is brought to you by The Showrunner Podcasting Course, your step-by-step guide for developing, launching, and running a remarkable show — just like this one — that builds an audience in the age of on-demand audio content. We are re-opening the course for one week only on June 25th. The only way to get in is to be on the list. Join today by going to Showrunner.FM. That’s Showrunner.FM, and drop your email into the sign up box.

Welcome back to another episode of Hack the Entrepreneur. We have a really, really cool guest today. Anita, welcome to the show.

Anita Campbell: Thanks for having me, Jon. I’m delighted to join you.

Jonny Nastor: It’s absolutely my pleasure. Okay, Anita, let’s jump straight into this. Anita, as an entrepreneur, can you tell me what is the one thing that you do that you feel has been the biggest contributor to your successes so far?

How Sticking with Things Can Be Good for Entrepreneurs

Anita Campbell: I stick with things. I think that’s the biggest thing that entrepreneurs need to do and that I see so many don’t do, and that’s a shame. I see entrepreneurs who are ‘this close’ — and I’ve got my fingers really close together — they are this close to a breakthrough or success and maybe they give up or they abandon it. They switch gears. I’ve seen some people go through many different types of business models over a period of time, or they’re focused on this market or that market, and haven’t really given their first effort or their second effort or whatever a real chance.

It takes a long time to see results. This whole concept of an overnight success may happen to a few entrepreneurs. For most of us, overnight is going to be certainly months and more likely years.

Jonny Nastor: I know. I’ve noticed that there’s this five- or 10-year period to overnight success when everybody finally hears about you because your business takes off, but, “Oh I’ve been doing this for eight years.” You know what I mean?

Anita Campbell: Exactly. It seems to them like an overnight success, which is great.

Jonny Nastor: Exactly, exactly. When you say that you see entrepreneurs that are ‘this close’ and you have your fingers very, very close together, is there a way that you can tell that they’re that close and they can’t tell it, or how do you know they’re that close?

Why It’s Necessary to Measure Your Progress Over the Long-Term

Anita Campbell: I don’t know that you always know that they’re that close, but you start hearing more about an entrepreneur and what they’re doing and their work. They’re starting to get more on the radar screen, but those who give up don’t feel it’s happening fast enough. They maybe just need to step back a little bit.

I would say just step back and try to not let yourself get too discouraged. I think a lot of times the pressure of earning a living gets in the way, and some of them don’t have any choice. They have a family to support, so they have to move on to something else. Something isn’t reaping enough benefits quickly enough, so even if they do see some progress, they may feel they have to move on somewhere. I would just say try to find another way.

For years, I was doing consulting. I was writing for other sites. I did what I had to do. One thing was my day job, and my business was my evening job. I had two shifts. It was a grind, I will say. There were many, many times I wanted to give up, but I do feel that looking at what was happening and seeing little bits of progress here and there helped motivate me to stick with it.

So my advice to entrepreneurs would be try to measure things. Try to look at your progress and see if you really are making progress — even if it is small — and figure out ways to accelerate that progress that you do see in whatever areas. That varies from business to business.

That may be, have you landed larger-sized clients versus the clients you started out with? That could be progress. You need to measure that. Are you bringing in more dollars per client now than you did two years ago when you started out? Or, did you just have more sales? Have you been able to add a team at all? If you have a web business, has your web traffic grown, and is it growing pretty consistently? You do have ups and downs, but over a period of time, have you been able to see that growth?

Whatever it is, you measure it. See if you are making progress. Then try to take heart in that. Use that to motivate yourself. I used to jokingly, but only half-jokingly, talk about sending myself reports, and I still do it. What I meant by that is, even if you’re a one-person company, measure something. Write a report about it. Create a graph, a nice bar chart that shows progress over time, and send it to yourself. You’ll be delighted to get it because you’ll see, “Oh, I’m making progress.” Those are the small ways that you can tell if you’re making progress and you’re ‘this close.’

Can you tell for certain? I don’t think anybody can tell. Hindsight is great. You just don’t know in advance, but you can only measure things by looking backwards, seeing where you’ve come from — have you made some progress? Figure out ways to do that. Like I said, create some reports and send them to yourself that show your progress.

Jonny Nastor: Exactly. You said two really, really smart things that I really liked. The first was you did what you had to do when it came time to start, which meant doing a lot of work. Working with clients but then writing for other people. Doing things to make the money you have to do because, it’s true.

When you’re starting out, that usually is an issue, but also, lots of times, you can probably cut back on some expenses. It’s hard sometimes to just make a bunch more money at the beginning. You can usually cut back. If you had a career and you had all these expenses coming out monthly, you could probably cut back on some. Unfortunately, that’s the way to do it a lot of times at the beginning is to just spend less money, because you know long-term it’s better.

Anita Campbell: Exactly.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah. Then you said to measure things, which is really, really smart because it’s true. You have to measure these things. Like how you said at the very beginning where people quit too soon. When you’re measuring things, even if you’re not getting bigger clients all the time or more web visitors, it’s typically not quitting that project altogether. It’s just tweaking some things and testing some new stuff to see if you can make it then work.

Anita Campbell: Exactly. Let me expand again upon the benefits of a good bar chart and why that’s important. The reason is that because you don’t often see progress in a straight line. It’s not like a hockey stick that everything starts down here, and it just zooms up to the top.

What you tend to see is some progress from last month to this month and then maybe to next month, and then maybe things will tail off a while. You might even drop down a little bit in the following month. If you keep measuring over time, if you were to do a trend line and see, “Well, what’s the trend?” You’ll see that it actually is an upward trend. Don’t get discouraged just because things don’t do as well one month.

Revenue may not be as high one month as it was the month before, but there could be lots of reasons for that — depending on how you invoice, clients paying late, seasonality, or whatever it is. There are lots of reasons that things don’t always go up in a perfect straight line. Don’t get discouraged about that. You need to see a longer trend.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, totally, totally true because, whether you’re blogging, you’re podcasting, or you’re trying to get clients, that’s just the way it works. There’s these dips that you got to slog through.

So, Anita, there seems to be a time in every entrepreneur’s life when they realize one of two things. Either they have this calling to make something big in the world or, as it seems to be most of the cases, they simply cannot work for somebody else. Can you tell me where you fall in those two categories and when you discovered this about yourself?

Understanding That We All Work for Someone, Whether We Like It or Not

Anita Campbell: In the end, I will say that we all work for someone because we all have clients, customers, whatever. We have to do something. In the end, we are all doing something with others, and you have to report to someone. Even if it’s just a matter of being accountable to your spouse or significant other for your progress and how you’re doing in your business.

That said, for a long time, I worked in the corporate world. It was a very structured world in many ways. I would leave in the morning and not get back until late at night. I just felt very disconnected from my personal life and my home. I could barely spend two hours enjoying your home because you get home, your dog-tired, you eat, and then it’s time to go to bed, and you get up and leave again.

That was just something that wasn’t any one thing. Over the years, it just accumulated, and I became dissatisfied with that and thought, “I want to be more in touch. I want to have more freedom, more control over my own time.”

Now, I would never be employed by anyone else. I just couldn’t possibly do it. I don’t care what condition my business was in. Even if it started failing or something, I’d still stick with it and do something. I just enjoy having that ability to control. It’s a misnomer to say that you have complete freedom, you don’t have to answer to anyone. I still have to answer to people, but I just have more control over my time in my life.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah. We all work for someone. I like that. It’s such a good clarification. When you have had a boss the whole time and then you go to do it on your own, all of a sudden, it’s like, “I can do whatever I want.” It’s like, “Well, no, you have to find people who will pay you to do what you want to do.” It means you have to be accountable to them.

Anita Campbell: Don’t you think you have to be even more disciplined to be an entrepreneur than working in office setting as employee?

Jonny Nastor: You do. That’s one of the hardest things is not having somebody set a deadline for you, and you know that they’re going to come down hard on you if you don’t hit that deadline. When it’s yourself, you’re just like, “Oh, well, I just want to go hang out at the beach today.” You’re going to end up having a job again in a couple of months because you won’t be able to pay for your mortgage. It’s just how it works. It’s true.

Then, as you said, the longer you are self-employed or working for yourself and have your own business, the thought of going back, you get so far from it. Even thinking about it, just how do people just go and do that all the time? It’s a funny concept.

Anita Campbell: It is.

Jonny Nastor: All right, so, Anita, at the beginning you told us that you are really, really good at sticking with things. Now, every blog post expert talks about 80/20 rule. Do 20 percent, and get 80 percent of the results. Find what you’re good at, and delegate the rest. Anita, can you please tell us something that you are not good at in your business?

Why Admitting What We’re Bad at Is a Good Thing

Anita Campbell: Let’s see, I am not really good at pulling together a lot of details in a project. I’ve done it. I can do it. I actually like to do things in detail and in-depth and am rather analytical, but I just hate following up and chasing a lot of details. I’m just not very good at that unless I really force myself, and then I’m really unhappy about it.

I find that it’s better to surround yourself. It’s great to have one person on your team who really loves doing that and is overjoyed by the challenge of taking a big messy bunch of details and organizing it all and pulling them all together and getting everything out of everyone and pulling their things to get things.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, exactly. Was this something that you realized quickly about yourself, or did it take quite a few projects before you’re like, “Wait a minute, this is a real struggle for me, and I need to replace this part of me”?

Anita Campbell: It actually took me a while … maybe not that I didn’t realize it, but I just didn’t want to admit. I don’t know, I hate to admit that I’m not good at anything.

Jonny Nastor: We all do. We all do.

Anita Campbell: The funny thing is there are a lot of things I’m not good at, but I hate to admit it.

Jonny Nastor: I know. That’s why I love the question. I also love the definitive answer. I love that you have a perfect grasp on specifically one, and that’s a massive part of a business. Pulling a project together and all the fine details and following up and making sure that it follows the trajectory it’s supposed to, that’s huge.

I know that people, especially when you’re growing a business, you just think that, “Well, maybe this is just a hard job. It’s hard for anyone, so I just need to keep doing it.” It really hinders growth a lot of times because we don’t want to give it up or else we don’t want to admit that we’re not good at it.

Anita Campbell: Yeah. It’s hard to perceive what you’re good at or not good at, or at least come face-to-face with it. I find it a lot easier to look at others and point out, “Oh, well, clearly that’s what’s wrong over there.” The closer you get to your own situation, it’s just harder to deal with it.

Jonny Nastor: It is. No, it really is. With projects, though, so let’s talk about that. You now have somebody to pull together the details of the project and to follow-up. But do you have a set system in place right now with Small Biz Trends that would make it so that you decide what a new project is. That ‘project’ is a very loose term, which you can take it any way you want.

When you decide a direction you want to go into or a new market or any direction you want your business to go, is there a process you go through right now to determine if that’s the right thing for you to do?

If You Don’t Know How to Do Something, Don’t Do It

Anita Campbell: We’ve been around now for 12 years, so we’ve pretty much fallen into knowing what our core business is. As long as we know enough to say no to things that is not close to our core business, we’re okay. We have maybe eight or 10 things that we do, which are all variations of maybe two or three different things. Those things, I would say, are what we do well. Those are things like we offer advertising. We may offer sponsored events, such as sponsored Twitter chats. We offer sponsored content that we create.

Those are the kinds of offerings that we have. As long as we stick closely to those, we know what we need to do with them now after all these years, and we have certain processes. It’s actually a fairly complex process that we go through — all the way from interest and following up on a lead and quoting that to a sale, then getting a closed sale, and then from there we have to produce the content or implement the ads. Then track that, keep all aspects of the site going, and then we do reporting back to our clients and customers about how those things performed. We have to market our content in between. There’s a lot of different pieces there.

We know now pretty much what those projects look like. Like I said, as long as we don’t get tempted to do something that’s a little too far from those things. People come to you with opportunities. It does get tempting. They might say, “Would you like to go organize a safari and then write about it?” Organizing a safari is not something that we know how to do. We’d totally fail at that.

Jonny Nastor: Sounds fun, though, doesn’t it?

Anita Campbell: It does, and I’d love for somebody to offer for us to do that, but luckily, I think, at this point, we’d know enough to say, “We probably wouldn’t be very good at that, so we respectfully decline to take that business. But if you had a safari and somebody else organized it and there was a business spin to it and you wanted us to write about the businesses involved and send somebody on this safari just to write about it and then promote that content, yes, we could do that, but we wouldn’t be organizing the safari. It’s just too far out of our core competency.”

The Hard Part of Identifying Your Core Competency

Anita Campbell: That’s a hard thing in and of itself just to identify what is your core competency and what is not. Over the years, we’ve said yes to things much to our chagrin that then we regretted it. “Oh, why did we do this one? Why did we say we’d do this? We know nothing about doing this.” Luckily, now, we have a little better sense of “Gee, we don’t know how to do that. We better say no.”

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, I guess that sort of answers my follow-up question, which it sounds like you’ve matured as a business — meaning that 12 years ago, if somebody had approached you with running a safari and writing about it, you may have said yes.

Anita Campbell: Yeah, because I would have been thrilled to have any business at that time, so it’s like at first you say yes to everything.

Jonny Nastor: You do.

Anita Campbell: “Yes. I don’t care whatever it is. Yes is the answer.” Then you find out that’s just the start of your challenges. Even if you say yes and you can’t deliver what you said or it takes you so long and you have to end up hiring additional help, then you find that it’s not very profitable business because you don’t know how to do it. You can’t do it very well, so you actually lose money on it. A couple of those situations of losing money or just having nightmarish situations will cure you pretty quickly and teach you to say no.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, it’s essential that you learn to say no, but you’re right, when we’re starting out, although we probably should long-term say no to those things, we can’t, or we feel like we can’t until the business matures. But then does the business ever mature if we don’t learn? It’s the real hard cart before the horse thing.

All right, we’re going to wrap up on something, Anita. You’re 12 years now in this business, which is great. I love this. This thing that I like to finish on is called — or what I’m tentatively calling — the ‘entrepreneurial gap.’

As entrepreneurs, we’re always forward thinking, always pushing further ahead. In one month, in three months, in six months, in five years, in 10 years, we’re going to be doing bigger, better things in our lives and in our businesses. We’re always, even before we get to those goals, we usually set five or 10 loftier ones into the distance. It’s always just ahead, ahead, ahead. When I get there in six months, everything will be better.

I find that, because we’re just big dreamers and everything as entrepreneurs, we fail a lot of times to stop and turn around and look at where it is we’ve come from, what we’ve learned, what we’ve accomplished, and assess that situation. I would love right now, Anita, if you could stop, turn around, look at all the things you’ve done as an entrepreneur, and where you’ve come from, and just tell me how you feel about that.

Loving What You Do Even If You Might Take a Slightly Different Path in a Do-Over

Anita Campbell: I am very happy with my choice to be an entrepreneur. I would never turn back. I wish I’d done it earlier. I am very happy with the business that we’re in. I love the business that we’re in. I can’t wait to get started in the morning. Sometimes I just arrive at my computer before I even take a shower, and I’ll spend an hour just working because I’m so excited to get at it. I love that.

I think along the way I wish I had done certain things earlier or not done certain things that I, on reflection, think would have helped the business grow faster or not have sidetracked us. Certain things that I’ve done have sidetracked us a little bit, a lot of little things.

You try certain things, and you realize, “Oh, that’s not working out.” It’s not that the not working out is a problem, it’s just that you look back and think, “Well, that probably was ill-fated to begin with. That probably wasn’t a very good thing because it just involved doing a lot more work with very little revenue. We should have focused more on driving more revenue and done this other activity over here that had more promise to drive more sales with less work.”

I also wish we had done more with internal systems to automate things and make things more efficient.
I think the killer among entrepreneurs and small businesses often is that you start a business, you have no systems, no processes. You’re starting with a clean sheet of paper in most cases, and you have to create all these systems and processes. It’s very unlike being in a large corporation where all these systems are set up and you just need to know, “Oh well, this is how we enter sales orders over here.”

When an entrepreneur’s business enters sales orders, what does the sales order look like? Do we have a sales order form? What sales order system do we enter it into? Then once we’ve entered it into that system, what else happens with the sales order?

All those are questions that the entrepreneur has to sit there and figure out. That’s just with the sales order. Then it comes time to do the production, whatever business you’re in. “Okay, well, how are we going to track our production? Well, okay, what does it look like? What’s the process? Do we have a system? Okay, we got to create a system. Are we going to go out and look at 12 different types of software to see if there’s one we can use that fits our business?” All of these things are very challenging and make it very, very hard for small businesses and entrepreneurs to really drive efficiencies and drive profits in their business.

Small businesses are like a sieve almost in that a lot of profits fall through in the form of expenses or wasted time or manual effort, duplication of effort, duplicate entry into multiple systems, or doing a lot of things manually because you don’t have automation and systems. I think that hurts a lot of small businesses because you don’t have that. I guess I wish we had been able to implement more of those things faster. It always seems to take like five times as long to implement a system and put your processes together than you hope or you anticipate.

Those are all just, more or less, I would say minor in the overall scheme of things, regrets if I had any. Still very happy with the overall approach. Wouldn’t do anything differently as far as starting a business and sticking with it, just other than maybe a few things along the way.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, I love it. I agree that systems and processes, or lack thereof, in small business is probably the greatest detriment to themselves and their businesses. They’re really hard to create. I would also say that you should be really, really proud of yourself because what you created with Small Business Trends, from the outside looking in, is really, really impressive, and I believe helps thousands and thousands of people in businesses all the time.

Anita Campbell: Thank you very much for saying that, Jon.

Jonny Nastor: No problem. You deserve it. We’ve got to talk about your business, Anita, and you just in passing during the whole conversation, could you specifically tell the listener where they can go find out more about you, Anita, and also your business?

Anita Campbell: Oh, absolutely. Of course, our flagship is Small Business Trends. It is a news and information site and our target market is small businesses, which we define as either anything from the solo entrepreneur up to a business with up to 100 employees.

We write news. We cover news, original news. We have journalists who actually go out and they find the news, and they cover it about new products, services, announcements, whatever for small businesses. We cover tips and advice, and our tagline is “Small business success delivered daily.” That’s what we’re all about. Go to SmallBizTrends.com, and you’ll find us there or you can go to SmallBusinessTrends.com as well.

We also have a sister site you should check out. If you have small business content you’d like to share with the world, it’s called BizSugar, like the sweet stuff, BizSugar.com, and you can share your blog post and your videos and other content so that the world can find out about it. It’s totally a community site, free, for people to use that way.

Jonny Nastor: That’s excellent. I will link to Small Biz Trends and BizSugar on the show notes, so they’re easy for everyone to find. Are you on Twitter, Anita?

Anita Campbell: I am. I’m at @SmallBizTrends. It’s a combination of my own account and the company account, but I do monitor it. I have some help, but I look at it every single day, even weekends. There might be a holiday in there I don’t look at it, but basically every single day. I do respond. I try to respond. I don’t always respond right away, but I do. That really is me. We hold chats and other things on there. I like Twitter. It’s my favorite social network.

Jonny Nastor: That’s why I mentioned it because it’s mine, too. I will also link to your Twitter handle on the show notes, so they’re easy for everyone to find. Thank you so much for taking the time, Anita, to join me today. Please, just keep doing what you’re doing because it really is inspiring and awesome to watch.

Anita Campbell: Thank you very much, Jon, and you keep doing what you’re doing, too. I love your show format.

Jonny Nastor: Oh, thanks.

Anita, thank you for such a great conversation. I really, really appreciate how genuinely you just enjoy and love your business and your audience so much and your customers so much. I think that’s something we should all strive for in our business, and I really appreciate how you shared that with us at the end.

I know I have this tendency sometimes to say that when I’m going through the conversation, I come up with all the brilliant things that my guest said. Anita said a lot of things, but it’s not that I’m just saying that. Anita really did say … I have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine things in a 23-minute conversation that really, really, really struck a chord with me.

But, as I’ve been known to say before, she said one thing, didn’t she? She did. She said one thing. Did you get it? Did you hear it? Let’s do it. Let’s find the hack.

Anita Campbell: … because you don’t often see progress in a straight line. It’s not like a hockey stick that everything starts down here, and it just zooms up to the top. What you tend to see is some progress from last month to this month and then maybe to next month, and then maybe things will tail off a while. You might even drop down a little bit in the following month. If you keep measuring over time, if you were to do a trend line and see, “Well, what’s the trend?” You’ll see that it actually is an upward trend. Don’t get discouraged just because things don’t do as well one month.

Jonny Nastor: And that’s the hack.

Oh so very well said, Anita. So very well said, and such a point that needs to be hit home. I hope to not fall into that where I don’t want to in any way be misleading you into thinking that all of my guests, myself included, have followed this hockey stick growth in our businesses, because it’s absolutely not true. It’s not how it works.

I know I’ve discussed it a lot, but this whole concept of the dip as spoken, as written by Seth Godin, where everything in life or in business that’s worth doing is going to start going up, where it looks like, “Here we go, the sky is the limit,” and then it drops off to this dip. The harder that dip is to get through, the longer it takes to get through, usually the bigger the rewards are on the other side.

As Anita says, it’s so true. You have to keep this longer vision going and this idea of working in months in projects and thinking longer term, that “I can’t do something or start something today and expect it to just take off. I have to work through these dips, and I have to know that, as trends fall month to month sometimes, if I look at the big picture and I step back, I can see an upward trend.”

The same thing happened with Hack the Entrepreneur. If I hadn’t have taken any advice like this and looked at the long-term trend line, I would have quit. I would have quit around episode 50 because it seemed like there was nobody new listening, and there hadn’t been for months.

At the beginning of the show, there was a lot. Then it fell off, and then I pushed through. Took about three months, then it really started to skyrocket again, but most people would quit at that point. I love the point that Anita makes in this. She works with a lot of small businesses, a lot of entrepreneurs, so she knows. I love how she really hit that home.

I think it’s so important and such an important message that even if we hear, or we’ve read Seth Godin’s book, or you’ve heard me say it, it’s true. All of us go through it. It’s not just you. It’s all of us. Everyone who’s on my show has gone through it and will go through it again, repeatedly. It’s the process. I really want to make sure that you understand that this isn’t just people with hockey stick growth and non-stop successes all the time.

Thank you so much, Anita, because I love the conversation, and I’m so happy that I got to talk to you.

That’s it. Another episode, Hack the Entrepreneur. Episode 100 is approaching. Who will be the guest? That’s the question everyone’s asking. Maybe not. That’s the question I was asking, and then I’d figured it out. I know who the guest has to be, and I think it’s going to be good. It’s going to be a lot of fun.

The show was brought to you by Showrunner, the podcasting course. If you want to learn from me, how I built a pretty amazing audience that you are a part of, a pretty amazing audience really quite quickly, we have a podcasting course with Rainmaker.FM and Copyblogger Media.

We are opening it up for just one week starting on Thursday and going till, I believe, July 2nd. We close it down a week later. This will be the best price you can get it for before we do the full launch with Copyblogger this summer. At that point, it’s out of our hands what they charge, but it’s going to be significantly more. I can tell you that.

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All right, guys, thank you. I really, truly, absolutely appreciate the fact that you stopped by and listened.

Please, until next time, keep hacking the entrepreneur.