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7-Figure Small with Brian Clark
Confessions of a Pink-Haired Marketer
Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing
Get More Clients With Smarter Email Marketing
Hack the Entrepreneur
Members Only
Rainmaker.FM Elsewhere
Site Success: Tips for Building Better WordPress Websites
StudioPress FM
Technology Translated
The Digital Entrepreneur
The Missing Link
The Showrunner
The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience
Youpreneur with Chris Ducker
Zero to Book
Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing
hosted by Darrell Vesterfelt and Tim Stoddart

The Path to a Legendary Copywriting Career

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Previous Episode:5 Tips for Affiliate Marketing Beginners More Episodes Next Episode:A 30-Minute Copywriting Course from a Master of the Craft

All Episodes:

March 30, 2020

The Advantage of Email Marketing, Featuring Nathan Barry of ConvertKit

March 15, 2020

How to Write Content That Resonates

March 9, 2020

How to Conquer Your Fear of Selling, with Leah Neaderthal

March 2, 2020

How to Build Remarkable Products to Grow Your Business, with Ramit Sethi

February 17, 2020

What You Should Talk about on Your Podcast, with Tara McMullin

February 9, 2020

How to Win at Search in 2020

February 3, 2020

How to Turn Pro as a Freelance Writer

January 27, 2020

Marketing Segmentation and Personalization with Brennan Dunn of RightMessage

January 20, 2020

Podcasting Still Matters, with Pat Flynn from Smart Passive Income

January 13, 2020

The New Look Copyblogger in 2020

January 8, 2020

New Year, New Copyblogger

October 23, 2019

The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur with John Jantsch

October 2, 2019

Consistency Will Take You Further

September 25, 2019

The Past, Present, and Future of Online Learning

September 16, 2019

How to Get More of the Right Things Done

September 9, 2019

Why the Future Is Still Email

September 3, 2019

What’s Next for
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August 26, 2019

How Smart, Nimble Companies Are Using Webinars Today

August 19, 2019

The Clarity Method: A Conversation with Tim Brownson

August 12, 2019

Digital Business Trends and the Latest on the Rainmaker Platform

August 5, 2019

4 ‘Naive’ Business Principles for Enduring Success

July 8, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 3: Polishing and Promotion

July 1, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 2: Getting It Written

June 24, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 1: Thinking and Research

June 17, 2019

3 Almost Magical Headline Ingredients for More Traffic, Engagement, and Shares

June 10, 2019

Lessons Any Business Can Learn from an Impressive Influencer Marketing Fail

June 3, 2019

13 Ways of Looking at a Headline

May 27, 2019

The 7 ‘Bad’ Habits of Incredibly Successful People

May 20, 2019

Writers: How to Move from Making a Living to Driving Revenue

May 13, 2019

Choose the Right Frame to Boost the Power of Your Content

May 6, 2019

How Copywriting Teacher Belinda Weaver Reenergized Her Email List for Massive Engagement

April 29, 2019

3 Reasons Why Really Good Writers Sometimes Can’t Find Great Clients

April 22, 2019

3 Slightly Embarrassing Emotions that Drive Effective Copywriting

April 15, 2019

Get 10 Content Marketing Boosters in 20 Minutes

April 8, 2019

Becoming the ‘Chief Empathy Officer’ of Your Copy and Content

April 1, 2019

One of the Most Important Marketing Decisions You’ll Ever Make

March 18, 2019

What Nobody Wants to Hear about Content Marketing

March 11, 2019

Getting Your Big, Scary Projects Finished: A Conversation about Growing Gills

March 4, 2019

When Is It Time to Bring in a Professional Copywriter?

February 25, 2019

Using Content to Systematically Move Prospects Toward a Purchase

February 18, 2019

Understanding the Lifecycles of Your Website, with Pamela Wilson

February 11, 2019

5 Ways to Manage a Stress-Induced Creative Slump

February 4, 2019

3 Ways Strategic Content Can Drive Measurable Business Outcomes

January 28, 2019

The Social Media Platform Every Content Creator Should Be Using in 2019 (Nope, It’s Not Facebook)

January 21, 2019

Real Talk about Generating High-Quality Content

January 14, 2019

A Conversation with Paul Jarvis about Staying a ‘Company of One’

October 29, 2018

The 3 Plus 1 Foundational Elements of Effective Persuasion

October 22, 2018

5 Essential Copywriting Techniques from Copyblogger

October 15, 2018

5 Ways to Recover Your Professional and Creative Confidence

October 8, 2018

5 Stinky Sardine Secrets to Make Your Content More Fascinating

September 24, 2018

The Mindset ‘Hack’ that Frees Your Creativity and Makes You Happier

September 18, 2018

How to Kill Your Sales and Mess up Your Business: Lessons from a Used Car Salesman

September 4, 2018

The 7 Things Writers Need to Make a (Good) Living

August 27, 2018

Are You Making These Social Media Marketing Mistakes?

August 20, 2018

Fix These 7 About Page Mistakes for More Traffic and (Possibly) Better SEO

August 13, 2018

7 Ways to Boost Your Creativity

August 6, 2018

A 10-Step ‘Checklist’ for Your Content Marketing Site

July 30, 2018

The 3 Keys to Publishing Strong Content … Even If You Aren’t a ‘Great’ Writer (Yet)

July 23, 2018

Fix These 3 Points of Failure to Get Better Results for Your Content

July 16, 2018

Big Changes at ConvertKit: A Discussion with Founder Nathan Barry

July 9, 2018

3 Skills to Master to Become a Marketing Badass this Year

June 18, 2018

The Quiet Power of Conversational Copy

June 11, 2018

5 Rules of Thumb to Relieve SEO-Induced Stress

June 4, 2018

How to Use the GDPR to Make Your Business Stronger than Ever

May 14, 2018

‘Good Karma’ Selling that Works: A Conversation with Tim Paige

April 30, 2018

How to Get More Comfortable (and Effective) at Selling

April 23, 2018

Privacy and Permission in the Wake of Cambridge Analytica

April 16, 2018

Seth Godin and How to Create Change

April 9, 2018

Email? Chatbots? Social? How Are We Supposed to Reach People?

March 26, 2018

The Double-Edged Sword that Can Make (or Break) Your Content

March 19, 2018

Make More Progress by Getting (Gently) Out of Your Comfort Zone

March 12, 2018

Are You Doing Content Marketing Wrong?

March 5, 2018

Storytelling for Modern Content Marketing (Part 2 of 2)

February 26, 2018

Storytelling for Modern Content Marketing (Part 1 of 2)

February 19, 2018

10 Quality Factors Search Engines Need to See on Your Site

February 12, 2018

A Simple Content Strategy to Make Your Site Massively More Useful

February 5, 2018

How to Avoid a Heartbreaking Business Failure

January 29, 2018

Hey Writers: Let’s Get You Paid What You’re Worth

January 15, 2018

5 Keys to Making Your Content More Shareable

December 18, 2017

3 Observations on Trends (but not Predictions) for 2018

December 11, 2017

3 Tips Now to Build a Strong Foundation in 2018

December 4, 2017

The 3 Success Factors that Help Writers Earn a Great Living

November 27, 2017

How to Recognize a Great Content Idea

November 20, 2017

How to Cultivate a More Meaningful Gratitude Practice

November 13, 2017

Advice for Poets, Advice for Killers

October 30, 2017

Face Your Business Fears on Halloween Week

October 23, 2017

How to Make Smarter Decisions about Your Website

October 2, 2017

A Series of Unfortunate Content Events

September 18, 2017

The Evolution of a Successful Copywriter

August 28, 2017

7 Ways to Improve Your Marketing by Harnessing the Power of Evil

August 14, 2017

Smart Questions from our Brilliant Audience

August 7, 2017

Does the Web Have Enough Patience for Your In-Depth Content?

July 31, 2017

How to Write (Much Better) Blog Comments

July 17, 2017

Which Works Better: Positive or Negative Content?

July 10, 2017

How to Attract the Exact Customers You Want

July 3, 2017

How to Create Stability and Success as an Artist

June 19, 2017

Two Powerful Resources for Life-Changing Growth

June 12, 2017

How to Turn All that Marketing Advice into Action

June 5, 2017

How to Develop a Compelling Marketing Idea in 4 Steps

May 30, 2017

Getting Over the Fear of Selling

May 22, 2017

Talking Community and Digital Business with Tara Gentile

May 15, 2017

Plagiarism, Self-Deception, Bad Sandwiches, and Other Interesting Disasters

May 1, 2017

Professional Writers: Find Out How to Get Certified by Copyblogger

April 17, 2017

The Painful Core Lesson Taught by 3 Astonishing Big-Brand Fails

April 3, 2017

5 Mindset Habits that Actually Work

March 27, 2017

On Grammar, Usage, and Not Being a Great Big Jerk

March 20, 2017

Creative Strategies for Content Writers

March 13, 2017

A New Ultra-Easy Resource for Creating Excellent WordPress Sites

February 20, 2017

Thriving Freelancers and Clients from Hell

February 13, 2017

Politics, Content Marketing, and the 2017 Super Bowl Ads

February 6, 2017

Copyblogger Book Club: Winning the Story Wars

January 23, 2017

3 Content Marketing Strategy Fails (and How to Fix Them)

January 9, 2017

The 2017 Content Excellence Challenge: Your January Assignments

December 19, 2016

Bad Writing Advice: The ‘Post Truth’ Episode

December 12, 2016

Get Ready Now for a Creative and Productive 2017

December 5, 2016

The 4 Pillars Every Online Business Is Built On

November 28, 2016

Orbit Media’s Latest Survey of 1000 Bloggers

November 14, 2016

Have You Already Missed the Podcasting Gold Rush?

November 7, 2016

Getting More Traffic, Links, and Shares to Your Content

October 31, 2016

5 Quick Wins for Content Marketers

October 24, 2016

Announcing: An Intriguing New Tool for Collaborative Content

October 17, 2016

A New Book to Make Content Marketing Easier

October 10, 2016

Behind the Scenes at Copyblogger: Our New Email Approach

October 3, 2016

The ‘Obligatory’ Structure of Effective Content

September 26, 2016

7 Powerful Content Strategies Borrowed from Advertising Masters

September 15, 2016

How to Handle Demographic and Psychographic Segmentation (without Looking Like an Idiot)

September 8, 2016

Ethics, Professionalism, and Good Manners for Content Marketers

September 1, 2016

3 Questions that Can Haunt Creative Professionals

August 25, 2016

How to Give and Get Exceptional Testimonials, Part Two

August 18, 2016

How to Give and Get Exceptional Testimonials, Part One

August 11, 2016

Are You Leaving Money on the Table with Weak Headlines?

August 4, 2016

Content Marketing for Nonprofits

July 28, 2016

The One-Two Punch that Creates the Most Successful Copywriters

July 21, 2016

Pokémon Go: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

July 14, 2016

5 Suggestions When You’re Writing About Controversy

July 7, 2016

Announcing: A Breakthrough Educational Collaboration between Copyblogger and U.C. Davis

June 30, 2016

How to Break Past the #1 Conversion Killer

June 23, 2016

The New Age of Marketing Automation: Powerful, Simple, Cost-Effective

June 16, 2016

How to Make a (Really Good) Living as a Freelance Writer

June 9, 2016

Self-Publishing, Side Hustles, and Doing It All: A Conversation with Linda Formichelli

June 2, 2016

A Process for Content Marketing Success

May 26, 2016

Content Marketing Best Practices: Getting Email Opt-Ins

May 19, 2016

Behind the Scenes: Adventures in Advertising

May 12, 2016

Trump, Apple, and Facebook Advertising: Content Marketing News for May, 2016

May 5, 2016

Sally Hogshead and the Art of Fascination

April 28, 2016

Behind the Scenes at the Rainmaker Digital Company Meeting!

April 14, 2016

Social Media News, Social Media Constants

April 7, 2016

Strategies for B2B Podcasting, with Clark Buckner

March 31, 2016

Content Marketing Success Stories: Fitness Powerhouse Examine.com

March 24, 2016

Behind the Scenes: An Inside Look at the Rainmaker FM Redesign

March 17, 2016

Our Latest Advice and Resources for Digital Business Owners

March 10, 2016

Should Content Publishers Adopt Google’s New AMP?

March 3, 2016

7 Ways to Get Smarter with Social Media Listening

February 25, 2016

Content Marketing Shout-Out: Orbit Media and Andy Crestodina

February 18, 2016

The Tactic You Should Steal from Copyblogger

February 11, 2016

Content Marketing News for February, 2016

February 4, 2016

Email Marketing: The Misunderstood Powerhouse

January 28, 2016

The Secret Weapon Behind Great Websites: The Role of the Content Editor

January 21, 2016

Behind the Scenes: The Relaunch and Re-Imagining of Copyblogger.com

January 14, 2016

Trends and Predictions for Digital Commerce: A Conversation with Brian Clark

January 7, 2016

2016 Content Marketing Resolutions

December 28, 2015

The End of The Lede, The Beginning of Copyblogger FM

November 10, 2015

Constraints Can Be Blessings (Plus 2 Other Essential Lessons Jerod Re-Learned This Week)

November 3, 2015

Long or Short? The Content Length Question Answered, Once and For All

October 27, 2015

The Simple Publishing Hack That Gives Old Content New Life (Plus 3 More Tips)

October 20, 2015

The Surprising Truth about Earning a Profit from Your Content

October 13, 2015

How to Move Your Audience From Infatuation to Love

October 6, 2015

3 Things Your Audience Wants You to Know about Useful Content

September 29, 2015

Revisiting Authenticity: What It Is, What It’s Not, and Why It Matters

September 22, 2015

Publishing Lessons from Dave Pell, the Most Fascinating Email Newsletter Writer in the Business

September 15, 2015

Why Content Creators Should Kiss Their Programmers

September 8, 2015

Finally — A Podcast about the Superiority of Written Content

September 1, 2015

Hot Seat: Grilling Jerod on Using Audio Content to Seed a Content Arsenal

August 25, 2015

How to Optimize Your Headlines for Content Discovery with Vinegar (Before You Die of Cholera)

August 18, 2015

5 Stories That Explain Jerod Morris (Plus One Massive Marketing Lesson)

August 11, 2015

Lede Potpourri: A Big Idea, Talking About Demian Behind His Back, and Lessons from #PM15

August 4, 2015

How to Attend an Industry Conference Like a Boss

July 28, 2015

Getting the Most Out of a Conference When You’re There to Promote, Part 1

July 21, 2015

How Much Does the Modern Content Marketer Need to Know About SEO?

July 14, 2015

Are Podcasters Digitally Sharecropping Without Realizing It?

July 7, 2015

Celebrating Our 101st Episode (with a Special Guest Interviewer)

June 30, 2015

Why The Phrase ‘Leaders Are Readers’ Should Die

June 23, 2015

Why You Should Think Outside the Box About Online Courses

June 16, 2015

The Proper (and Safe) Way to Republish Old Articles

June 9, 2015

How to Grow an Audience on LinkedIn by Repurposing Content

June 2, 2015

Key Takeaways from Three-and-a-Half Hours with Henry Rollins

May 27, 2015

Rapid-Fire Takeaways from Authority Rainmaker

May 19, 2015

The Proper Way to Grow an Audience on Medium

May 12, 2015

The Introvert’s Guide to Launching a Successful Podcast

May 5, 2015

The One Quality All Popular Podcasts Share

April 28, 2015

Proof That Grit Is the Only Way to Reach Your Potential

April 21, 2015

Do We Celebrate Failure Too Much?

April 14, 2015

Choose Yourself Part 2: James Altucher Fights Back

April 7, 2015

Should We Fear Content Shock? (Or Could It Actually Be a Good Thing?)

March 31, 2015

Should You Really ‘Walk in the Direction of Your Fear’?

March 24, 2015

Is ‘Choose Yourself’ Good Advice … or New-Age Phooey?

March 17, 2015

Is Authority Earned or Bestowed?

March 3, 2015

Dan Pink on How to Succeed in the New Era of Selling

February 24, 2015

Here’s How to Answer the Most Important Question in Life (and Make a Living from It)

February 17, 2015

Sally Hogshead on How You Can Unlock Your Natural Ability to Fascinate

February 10, 2015

How to Learn from Your Successes

January 27, 2015

How to Learn From Your Mistakes

January 13, 2015

Lessons Learned from Conducting Two Monster Audience Surveys

December 16, 2014

Adaptive Content: A Trend to Pay Attention to in 2015

December 2, 2014

The Most Important Lessons You Should Have Learned in 2014

November 18, 2014

How We Built Our Careers Online (And What You Can Learn From It)

November 4, 2014

Interview with Brian Clark: How Customer Experience Maps Help You Develop a Smarter Content Strategy

October 21, 2014

How Empathy Maps Help You Speak Directly to the Hearts of Your Audience

October 7, 2014

How to Ignite a Feeling in Your Audience

September 23, 2014

Are You Overlooking This Cornerstone of a Smart Content Strategy?

June 26, 2014

How to Curate Knowledge, Turn it Into Wisdom, and Build Your Audience

June 19, 2014

How Successful Writers Curate Ideas

June 13, 2014

The 5 W’s of Link Curation

June 6, 2014

Why You Should Curate Content (And How to Do It Right)

May 30, 2014

How Freaks and Misfits Can Succeed in Business: A Conversation with Chris Brogan

May 23, 2014

The 2 Reasons People Don’t Click on Your Buttons … And How to Overcome Them

May 16, 2014

Chase Customers, Not Clicks

May 9, 2014

How to Be Authentic

May 2, 2014

How to Close With Style

April 25, 2014

The Best of Seth Godin on Copyblogger

April 17, 2014

How to Choose Arresting Images for Your Blog Posts (And Why You Should)

April 11, 2014

Removing Blog Comments: The View So Far

April 4, 2014

How to Use Internal Cliffhangers

March 28, 2014

Hangout Hot Seat with Brian Clark

March 21, 2014

How to Tell a Seductive Story

March 14, 2014

How to Create Exquisite Subheads

March 7, 2014

How to Write Killer Bullet Points

February 28, 2014

How to Write Damn Good Sentences

February 21, 2014

How to Use Persuasive Words

February 14, 2014

Michael Stelzner on Capturing Emails and Committing to Quality

February 7, 2014

How to Nail Your Opening

January 24, 2014

How to Write a Magnetic Headline (in Under 15 Minutes)

May 18, 2012

Seth Godin on When You Should Start Marketing Your Product, Service, or Idea

May 11, 2012

How to Attract an Audience by Integrating Content, Social, and Search

March 30, 2012

Why You Should Build an Audience Before You Build a Business

March 16, 2012

How Chris Brogan Built His Content Platform

March 9, 2012

Jay Baer on How to Turn Interested Prospects into Lifelong Customers

March 2, 2012

A 30-Minute Copywriting Course from a Master of the Craft

February 24, 2012

The Path to a Legendary Copywriting Career

February 17, 2012

5 Tips for Affiliate Marketing Beginners

February 10, 2012

Why Not Sell Physical Stuff With Digital Media?

February 3, 2012

Whether You Call it Blogging or Not, Online Content Still Rules

January 27, 2012

Answers to the 3 Biggest Email Marketing Questions We Get

January 20, 2012

How to Newsjack Your Way to Free Media Exposure with David Meerman Scott

January 13, 2012

Steven Pressfield and the War of Work

November 18, 2011

The Strategy Behind the Copyblogger Redesign

November 11, 2011

7 Ways to Create an Email Marketing "Snowball Effect"

November 4, 2011

Warning: If You're Not a Privacy Nut, You're Losing Sales

October 28, 2011

The 3 Kinds of Writing That Builds a Business

October 21, 2011

The Art of Seductive Writing: A Conversation with Robert Greene

October 7, 2011

Why Content Marketing Doesn't Suck

September 30, 2011

Are You Weird Enough to Succeed at Content Marketing?

September 23, 2011

What Works With SEO Right Now and Why No One Does What You Want

September 16, 2011

Are You Flushing Your Marketing Down the Social Media Toilet?

September 11, 2011

Seth Godin on Blogging, Business Books, and Creating Content that Matters

September 2, 2011

The Return of Copyblogger Radio …

June 10, 2011

Answered: Your Most Burning Content Marketing Questions

June 3, 2011

How to Get All the Clients and Customers You Can Handle

May 20, 2011

Is Content Marketing Worth the Work?

May 13, 2011

How to Write Nearly Undeletable Emails

May 6, 2011

Is the Online Gold Rush Over?

April 22, 2011

The Art of Enchanting Online Marketing with Guy Kawasaki

April 15, 2011

The Market for Something to Believe in is Infinite: An Interview with Hugh MacLeod

April 8, 2011

How to Constantly Create Compelling Content

March 25, 2011

The Content Marketing Question You Need to Answer … Now

March 18, 2011

Good SEO is Simple. Really.

March 4, 2011

Did Social Media Kill the Marketing Star?

February 25, 2011

How to Write (and Execute) a Simple but Powerful Business Plan

February 17, 2011

How to Kick Groupon to the Curb and Become a Local Hero

February 3, 2011

Convert … Or Die

January 27, 2011

Attention: Is Your Headline Getting Any?

January 20, 2011

How to Craft Landing Pages that Work

January 13, 2011

Why Every Smart Business is in the Media Business

January 5, 2011

2011 Content Marketing Predictions

December 15, 2010

Tim Ferriss on How to Reinvent Yourself with Blog Marketing

December 8, 2010

The 6 Elements of an Influential Web Experience

December 1, 2010

Your Staggeringly Unfair Marketing Advantage

November 17, 2010

How to Get Some Action

November 10, 2010

The Foundation of All Marketing that Works

November 3, 2010

Introducing Copyblogger Radio

February 24, 2012

The Path to a Legendary Copywriting Career

John Carlton is a force of nature.

He’s that rare breed who can write fascinating copy, and is just as fascinating to listen to. Every story ends up a great story.

Through the lens of his remarkable journey to and through the copywriting trade, John delivers practical business tips and killer copywriting advice in this first half of a two-part interview I did with him.

Whether you’re a veteran writer, or just starting to learn your craft, the next 30 minutes with this outspoken ad man is a worthwhile spend …

In this episode we discuss:

  • How to go from slacker to pro
  • Why writer’s block is a myth, and how to get your work done
  • 4 books that will change your career (and you should read every year)
  • The dirty little secret most copywriters don’t want you to know
  • The mental attitude that made John’s career
  • 2 secrets of John’s success
  • A vital lesson on the nature of opportunity

Hit the flash player below to listen now:

The Path to a Legendary Copywriting CareerRobert Bruce
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The Transcript

Please note that this transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and grammar.

________________

Robert: You have found Internet Marketing for Smart People radio . I’m Robert Bruce. Today we’re getting back to basics with one of the most respected, dangerous and “been around the block” copywriters in the world. John Carlton is on the horn with me and I am going to grill him on your behalf and try to get every bit of copywriting wisdom that I can from the man. Mr. Carlton thanks for coming on the show today. It’s a pleasure to have you here.

John: It’s a pleasure to be here, I am looking forward to this.

Robert: Well before we get into these questions for you John, I want to remind those of you listening that this show is brought to you by the Internet Marketing for Smart People course which is our totally free, 20-part online marketing course, delivered straight to your inbox.

This course is the very best of Copyblogger wrapped up into a 20 systematic, perfectly readable emails, dripped out to you about once a week. When you sign up, you’ll get years of Copyblogger tutorials totally free and with the benefit of not having to go back and pick through thousands of articles in the achieve.

If you want to get on the bus it’s easy, head over to Copyblogger.com , scroll down to about the middle of our home page, you’ll see the headline, “Grab out free 20-part internet marketing course,” drop your email address in the little box there and we’ll take care of the rest.

All right John. We could probably spend the entire show on just the story of how you came up as a copywriter, how you started, and then how you finally found your way, but give us the ten-minute version here if you can. This is a great story and I think it’s also very instructive to those out there listening who either want to learn this craft or want to get better at it.

How to go from slacker to pro

John: The reason it’s a good story is totally by accident of course, but I was the uber-slacker even before they invented the term slacker. I finished college, drifted away, and just really never figured out what I was going to do.

I was in my early 30’s, I think I was 32 maybe 33, and I had gone through a period of time where I was working in Silicon Valley in an art department and I lost my girlfriend, my place to live and my job all within a two-month period. I wound up living out of my car, going up and down the west coast looking up every friend I knew who had a couch to sleep on and sleeping on that couch.

I went down to San Diego and wound up in Los Angeles and got a really bad job and just had an epiphany that if my life was going to change, I was going to have to be the one who took responsibility and changed it. I learned for the first time in my life about goals, and goal setting and all this stuff happened and that’s stuff I could talk about a long time and I try to help people out with that, but as far as my story, literally I was working from nothing.

When I decided to become a freelance copywriter and go off into what I call, a career, which became a career, but I had no idea what was going to happen, I had no mentors, I had never meant a freelance copywriter before, I had no idea how I was going to pull all this off.

All I had was one month’s rent left in my bank account, I had a rattle trap car, that I had to put water in every time I wanted to drive it anywhere and I was working on a manual typewriter at the time, this was the early 80’s, before PCs came out. I had big cojones. I was living down in Los Angeles, happened to be a right period of time for freelancers, so it didn’t matter that I was figuring this out as I went along. Because there weren’t many freelancers out there.

The main thing that I did, the accidental thing that made my rags to riches story compelling was, I made what seems like an obvious decision. Back then, it wasn’t obvious at all, I figured out before I walked into a direct response advertising agency and said “I am here to be hired to write the stuff that your staff can’t handle right now” I better get really hip on everything about business, marketing, advertising, and stuff like that.

I took a speed-reading course, paid $100 for it, really couldn’t afford it, but did it. I went to the Torrance Municipal Library and read everything in the Dewey decimal system from I think 600 to 750, something like that. It was marketing, advertising, sales, salesmanship, all the stuff and I sped read through it and found the good books and took these good books and read them again very slowly.

What was interesting about that, there were two things that happened that gave me a leg up on everything? I then walked in to agencies thinking that that two or three weeks of having spent reading the entire library so of speak, was going to get me up to speed with the guys I would be begging for jobs from. In fact, it put me light years ahead of them.

I discovered right off the bat that most agencies, most writers and agencies, and most people who ran agencies knew very little about advertising marketing or business in general. They usually have jobs, they really wanted to be screenwriters or novel writers and they look down on copywriting and they thought being cute and clever was the way to go and they really had very little idea of what to do.

I walked in, the day I walked in as a rookie, I knew more than most of the people there just from an intellectual standpoint and as I gained experience, I kept running it through a couple of things that I invented, mostly the “gun to the head” attitude.

I just decided, every time I sat down to write a piece that I was going to write as if I had a gun to my head that would go off if it didn’t work. So that kept me from doing cute stuff, that kept me from going off on tangents, that kept me from experimenting, I used classy “how to” headlines. I kept it simple, straight forward and really stuck to classic salesmanship and all that worked.

The second thing that happened was when I met Jay Abraham, through Jay Abraham when I met Gary Halbert, who your listeners should know are now legendary copywriters, the books that I had found during my jaunt through the library and decided were the best ones, happened to be the ones that these guys had also chosen.

4 books that will change your copywriting career

This included Claude Hopkins, who was then out of print. The best book would be My Life in Advertising & Scientific Advertising two books that he wrote that were sold as one book is now back in print.

David Ogilvy’s books, Confessions of an Ad Man and a guy that worked with Ogilvy, John Caples, who wrote Tested Advertising Methods and also a guy name Victor Schwab, who wrote How to Write a Good Advertisement.

A lot of this stuff was written back in the 40’s, 50’s, and 60’s and in fact Claude Hopkins was writing back in the 1920’s, so this was the kind of stuff that was over looked, ignored and dismissed by most advertising, so called experts, back in the 80’s and we kept it alive. Like I said, a lot of the stuff, like the Robert Collier Letter Book had been out of print for 15 years.

When I was with Halbert, we paid a $1,000 for a copy of a mimeograph copy of that book. It’s now back in print and I think you can get it, I am not sure who is publishing it but you can get it for $12 now, but it was worth a $1,000 at the time to get a badly copied …. I don’t know if the listeners here know what a mimeograph is; it’s a very low-level form of copying.

The point is the information was most important. So all this stuff kind of coalesced. Now I spent my career working for agencies, for small corporations and then I got involved in the largest mailers in the world like Phillips and Boardroom and Rodale and things like that. When Halbert came along he kind of made me an offer, he represented the entrepreneurial side of the marketing world, and I didn’t even hesitate.

I turned my back on a million dollar career, I was “the” up and coming writer with these corporations and had a very, very lucrative career ahead of me and I was working with guys like Jim Rutz, I was ghostwriting for Jim Rutz, he’s the inventor of the magalog one of the top and highest paid writers.

I was working with Gary Bencivenga and guys like that, but I didn’t even hesitate to go off with Halbert and work with the entrepreneurs because that’s where it was exciting and that’s where we could try stuff, and we could market fearlessly and go where no marketer had gone before so I went off on that way. What happened was, while I was having fun and jumping on this stuff, two things are relevant and I will wrap up this story with this, one is, during my career and I would say it took me ten years to figure out how to be a good freelance copywriter before I took off with Halbert.

2 secrets of John’s success

I made almost every mistake possible, I stumbled into every pitfall, I went down to every blind alley, I did it, but I recovered quickly and I took notes.

Those notes, then became my first book, Kick Ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel , and became the foundation from my own teaching and my own abilities to take almost any writer and show them the ropes very quickly of what to do, because I knew what to do because I had done what “not” to do, figured it out, fixed it and then went back and did it right.

So I multiplied the successes, recognized, and minimized the bad stuff. It was kind of perfect. If I hadn’t taken notes, I would be a much less better teacher but I kept journals along the way, which I recommend all writers do. Keep a semi-secret journal. Actually, I would not want anybody to read my journals so I had an uncensored way of letting out all my frustrations and talking about things and I hope nobody finds these journals, but it helped me clear my head and stay focused on what was going on and fix a lot of problems that were happening. So I recommend journals for everybody. Well that’s great, I offered two things, I talked about one and the other one will remain a secret.

Robert: We’ll come back around to it if it comes back up. Why copywriting? In the very beginning where did the idea come from and what kind of captivated you or captured your imagination about it in the very beginning, when you were looking around, when you were living in your car, this rental trap car and you had a month, I think you said you had a month of income left or even that. Why was it copywriting?

John: There was a period of time, I sometimes compress the story because there is a lot of irrelevant stuff, but I did have a job. There was about a year and a half between that period of me living out of my car and me going out as a freelancer. During that time, I actually had a job where I was a one-man advertising department for a very small company and I was just trying things out. I stayed there because it was a forgettable job but when I went out on my own, yes, I had no money saved up, I had a car and I was working off of a typewriter that I had bartered for and I had a phone that I had actually taken out of the garbage at this other job that I had and set it up in my bedroom. I was in a little tiny apartment in Redondo Beach down in the LA area.

I had a bed and next to the bed was a desk and everything was there. There are photos of me back there, it’s pretty interesting, but it proved the point that that’s all you need is your brain and your skills and the ability to translate that into advertising.

Early I got a personal computer, I was an early adopter and I didn’t get a bigger office for five years or so, I continued working out of the bedroom because I just had my little cubby-hole. I did remember by the way Robert, not to scatter brain this too much, the other thing that I was going to say,

the main decision that I made when I became a freelancer, I just kind of announced to the world by just saying to myself — I am now a freelancer, that’s what I am going to do…

…and I had no plan B, and I was going to starve if I didn’t make this work, so it was kind of like Cortez burning his ships off the coast of Central America when he conquered the Aztecs.

Take your opportunities when they come

I realize that opportunities were not something that cascaded upon a person’s head. Opportunities are like whispers in the wind. If you are not primed to hear them, you will not hear them. I discovered Jay Abraham through someone else mentioning an ad that he had written somewhere and if I hadn’t had my antenna up and hyper attune to listening to that stuff … I didn’t know who Jay was, I didn’t know who Gary was, nobody did, Gary was actually still unknown when I was introduced to him.

These whispers in the wind, I think most people in their lives get at most two or three opportunities, big opportunities in life. Most people get none, even if some go by them or are available. What happens is that we not attuned to it, we get jaded about it, we think “oh if I don’t do it now, I’ll do it later” and what happened to me was not going to a Jimmy Hendrix concert back in 1968, I was still in high school, had an opportunity to go, didn’t go because something important popped up and Jimmy was gone not too long after that. I never did see him live and to this day, I can’t tell you what was so important that I didn’t go to that concert, but I do remember missing the concert.

That is that thing that opportunities come and go and there aren’t a lot of them and the big opportunities, the life changing and career changing opportunities often will not announce themselves, they will not tap you on the shoulder, they will drift by almost imperceptivity, you’ve got to be hyper attune to that. That alone can change a person’s life once they realize that opportunities are hard to catch and you need to jump on them right away.

Robert: Alright, one more thing from your story. You said that you went through the entire marketing and advertising section of the Torrance Public Library. This is fantastic, probably my favorite part of the story. You talked about coming out of that experience, reading those books that you thought would catch you up, but you found when you got out in the world that you were way ahead of working professional writers and copywriters.

One thing in particular from that is that you said that you read the stuff and tried to find the good stuff of course, but you reread the really good stuff. This is a drop dead simple, elementary piece of advice, deceptively to simple, but this is really important. Reading, re-reading, even a hand-full of books maybe on an annual basis.

John: Oh I would say, what’s interesting is that when I met Jay Abraham I actually physically met him, I had arrived at his office ready to punch him out because he had put an ad in the LA Times looking for direct response writers and I responded and he sent me back a curt letter which made it obvious to me that he had not read my stuff, because he had said “You are not really ready for this kind of stuff, why don’t you read Claude Hopkins and I suggest that you read it six times before you get back to me.”

Well I had actually read Claude Hopkins, My Life in Advertising & Scientific Advertising , eight times at that point. That was during the first year and a half of my so-called career. So I was very angry because it was obvious that he had not even looked at the package, that he had just taken my response and sent me this form letter back. So I found out that he lived very nearby and I went and met him and his office manager intercepted me, I was going to go in to confront him, but I was really mad because this was my life and he was being capricious about it and I wound up becoming fast friends and made a deal with Jay, this is very important too, and ties in with that reading the books.

When he found out that we had the same books in common, that I had read a lot of them, we were reading these and I continued to read that book yearly for another 15 years, I haven’t read it in the last couple years, but I am due to read it again. I kept reading these books but I also made a deal with Jay that I would work for free in exchange for free run of his office, so I got to hang out while he was doing consultations, I got to look in the back drawers of forgotten cabinets where stacks of unpublished advertising was hidden away and I got to see how a successful consultant ran his operation, so it was huge.

The mental attitude that made John’s career

I wasn’t getting paid for it. I would write for free, but it was a million dollar education. Finding those old books that other people dismissed and ignored, setting myself up for not becoming rich right away but actually doing my due diligence. I grew up in a working class household. My father was a construction worker and they don’t do it anymore but they use to have a guild, you had to be a novice, you had to be mentored by someone else who knew how to do the job and it took a couple of years to get from novice state to journeyman and then after journeyman you became a foreman and such but you had to climb the ladder very slowly.

So that was beaten into me and I didn’t expect, even when I knew I could write better and knew more than a lot of these ad guys, I knew that until I got the experience, and until I had done my duties as a rookie, that I wouldn’t be deserving of calling myself an expert writer yet, so I was willing to do this. I didn’t have expectations of fast wealth, I had expectations of entering a career that I could do for the rest of my life.

I have to tell you too Robert, that career, I teach other people how to be writers and how to be freelancers, because the career saved my life and I made a vow early on that I would help others if I made it. I mean I seriously had no plan B, I was working without a net, it was pretty scary so I understand how scary it can be for others and I started confronting things. That attitude, that “gun to the head” attitude, I started confronting things like writer’s block and things like that and realizing that they were myths.

Really, being a good writer meant that you didn’t have a novel … I do write novels on the side, but I didn’t consider myself a novel writer, moonlighting or trying to pay the bills by being a copywriter. I was a copywriter and on the side I might sample in fiction and do other things, but I took this business of creating ads very seriously and I never forgot that when I wrote an ad for somebody, his business was on the line, his lifestyle, his family, everything that he needed to make his business a success, copy was king from the very beginning, so without a good ad, they are nothing. Businesses are toast!

I realized that even if I wasn’t getting paid or even respected as much as I should, I held the keys to the kingdom for every single job that I took. If the ad didn’t work, bad things were going to happen to the client’s business. Also it formed my attitude later as my fees went up and as I started gaining notoriety and “reputation,” I started realizing that I had to take control, that I had to be and actually I think, we’ll get into this later on, but it’s about doing freelancing in the right way and having the right attitude and I think a lot of people get into it thinking mostly this is about you making money as a writer and that’s fun for people who realize “wow I am a professional writer this is great!”

That’s a huge revelation to have that you are actually paying the bills by being a writer, but sitting down and crafting language so that it effectively communicates a business sales message to prospects. That’s all very fun but really you are the savior of businesses, you are the guy that is going to come in and take an untenable position of a business. They’re almost always struggling when they have freelancers. They don’t know how to write, they don’t understand advertising and they don’t understand salesmanship and print, they don’t understand any of this stuff and you are that guy that comes in.

You are the white knight. So that attitude means that you have to be serious about this, it’s your job, and your job is very important.

Robert: Alright, you talked about goals, you talked about writer’s block, worth ethics, let’s extend this idea of what your job is and take a look, maybe a day in the life kind of thing. What are your working habits John, and how do you approach the blank page and how are you getting your work done day after day and year after year?

Why writer’s block is a myth and how to get you work done

John: That’s a great question and I will say that as a tie-in to me being a slacker who didn’t get my act together until my early 30’s and I had a true rags to riches story. Actually living in my car and then breaking out from that, so too am I one of the laziest writers that you will ever meet. I am by nature a slumbering ape in the jungle who is waiting for the banana to fall on my lap because I am too lazy to get up and go grab it.

But when I write, I do something that I call “stocking the desk” and what happens is that I know that I am going to spend a period of time and it could be an hour or two hours or whatever but I am going to go deep into this writerly state and so I stock the desk. And when I have to write an ad, I will do what I need to do, maybe I have to take a walk before hand, maybe I’ll take a nap, maybe I’ll take a long hot shower, I will do what I need to do and I’ll start to get prepped and if I don’t need to get prepped at the desk, if I can get on the phone, say an interview with somebody, and just get some information, I won’t sit at the desk and do it, I’ll walk around the house or I’ll walk out back.

What I am doing is prepping myself, and when I get in close to my desk, my desk by the way looks like a bomb went off, I use pile theory here. People would be appalled by the mess on my desk right now but I know where everything is and there is a method to my madness but I work very sloppily, I am very lazy but when I sit down and I am ready to write, I become the most intensely focused, hard-working writer that I’ve ever met in my life. What I do is I get prepped, I get zeroed in, I stock the desk and when I am ready to go, it’s like “bang” let’s go!

I am a fighter stepping into the ring. I’ve mentioned before that writer’s block was a myth, when I speak in front of audiences and there are usually a number of writers in the audience, or even there’s people who are sampling writers or need to write and say “how many people are bothered by writers block?” and a good third to a half of the room will raise their hands and I disabuse them of the notion, my response is “grow up it’s a myth, it’s nonsense.”

All writer’s block is, is not being prepared on what you need to do.

So if you sit down and haven’t got a headline burning in your head and you don’t know how you are going to start this conversation using language to write down whether it’s going to eventually be a sales video or a presentation from the stage or whether it’s going to be an infomercial, whether it’s going to be a written ad in a magazine or it’s going to be a website, it doesn’t matter. It starts with a written page, writing down “Hi my name is Joe Blow and for the last twenty years I’ve been an expert in blah, blah, and here is what I have for you.”

If you are not ready to just blast that first draft out when you are sitting down, then you have no business sitting down and even starting because you should be prepared. You should be boiling with the information that you need and all the stuff. Freelancers become experts in the markets that they inhabit for the period of time that they are paid to inhabit that market, so that’s what makes us different from other writers.

Some writers only work in one market, like they get a job … say a guy in the weight loss or diet field and they wind up becoming an expert in that, but they couldn’t write for the financial industry to save their lives, they would have to reinvent it. The kind of freelancer that I was, was that I took every job that came along and I don’t think there was a market out there that I haven’t written for. I knew a little bit about a lot of different things, but for the period of time that I am writing a piece I become an expert. I do what I have to do. I do a shorter version the equivalent of reading everything in the Torrance Municipal Library of that, I know how to interview people now and get the short cuts on what’s going on.

The dirty little secret most copywriters don’t want you to know

When I interview to write for a client, in a perfect world I interview the client yes, but I don’t take what he says, the boss of the company or the guy behind the product as seriously as I do when I want to talk to his secretary, I want to talk to the guy who actually has to sell the thing, I want to talk to the feet in the street, I want to talk to the chemist if they are involved, I there is anybody else involved, I want to hear the rumors, I want to hear what his staff is saying behind his back about him. I want to hear from the people who actually have to deal with the people on the phone who are maybe doing the refunding, I want to hear all these stories.

Hidden within that are the hooks and the real reasons why people buy and why the product can be successful, which often the owner of the company is clueless about because he has his own myth going on. He is in this echo chamber where he believes his product is really great and it’s his baby and people buy it because they want “X”. Usually that’s not true. Usually people are buying it for a totally different reason.

That is why when I present … and I don’t take on very many clients anymore, in fact I turn down 99% of people who want me to write for them and I recommend other writers to them, I make sure that they are taken care of but I am not taking the jobs, but when a client does hire me and I present a piece to them, if he says “wow this is a great ad John, I can’t wait to run it” then I know I did something wrong.

The only way I know that I did something right is when I present him an ad that makes him nervous. I want him to come back and say, “We can’t run this! We can’t say this! This is going to blow everything up! This is horrific!” because then I knows I’ve gotten him out of his comfort zone, into that space where the ad is going to wake people up and actually get the results that he has been looking for.

Most people want pabulum out there, they are afraid of their “reputation” and they want to run ads that are mild and don’t offend anybody, they are more worried about offending people then they are about selling stuff. If you are going to sell stuff, if you are going to be aggressive about having a great ad running, you are going to get some blow back; you are going to get a certain amount of refunds.

I tell people if you are marketing and you don’t have that sweet spot of refunds; between 7% and 15% of all sales should come back as refunds. If they are not, you are not pushing hard enough because to wake people up to get them to understand your message, to get them involved in the capitalistic dance of buying and consuming and getting whatever it is, whether it’s services or products or information, whatever you’ve got to sell.

It’s a dance and 15% of the population, I have a psychology degree Robert, we’ve talked about that, 15% of the population is crazy. So if you are not bringing in enough of any given audience of the 7% refund rate that you have, you can’t take that personally, that’s going to be people who bought by accident, who were drunk and bought, who bought and where in sycophantic episode and have no memory of it and things.

You just have to keep that in mind so that you don’t take that personally, but you have to be … I hear people bragging about zero refund rates, you are just marketing inside a small pocket and if you are happy with that then great, but if you want to break out of that and really start making some waves in your niche or your industry then you’ve got to get out of your comfort zone.

Robert: Hey everybody, Robert Bruce here closing out of part one of this interview with John Carlton, we’ll be back next week with part two. If you want to get more of John in the meantime, you can find him at John-Carlton.com and if you like what’s going on with this show, the best way to support it as always is to head over to iTunes and drop a comment there or a rating if you do so, we really appreciate it. All right, we’ll see you next week for part two of this interview with John Carlton.

Other listening options:

  • Click here to download the mp3 | 36.3 MB | 30:13
  • Click here to subscribe via iTunes
  • Click here for the RSS feed (non iTunes)
  • Click here for the show archive

The Show Notes:

  • Internet Marketing for Smart People Course (free)
  • John Carlton’s Blog
  • Copywriting 101
  • We left the building with Girl Talk …

About the Author: Robert Bruce is Copyblogger Media’s Chief Copywriter and Resident Recluse.

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Comments

  1. Sue Grimm says

    February 24, 2012 at 8:01 AM

    I find it interesting that John referred to people thinking copywriting is about writing “cute” copy. (I think that’s the word he used.) To me, it’s the most challenging because there’s so much psychology involved and I’ve had to retrain myself in the art lately. I cannot tell you how many egos have destroyed things I’ve tried to write over the years and I will always remember now if the head person doesn’t like it I’ve probably scored! 🙂 Thanks for that.

    Reply
  2. Josh Sarz says

    February 24, 2012 at 9:35 AM

    “Copy is King”

    “You are the white knight.”

    Wow.

    Reply
  3. Linda says

    February 24, 2012 at 9:55 AM

    I’ve worked with small business owners for 20+ years and my favorte part, hands down, was the part explaining that good copy makes the business owner nervous. So, SO spot on. My experience is that business growth and personal growth are parallel. Our own personal shortcomings and hurdles are what hold us back. Find the area that makes the business owner nervous and you’ve found the path to the growth they haven’t been able to achieve. Looking forward to part 2.

    Reply
  4. Robert says

    February 24, 2012 at 10:20 AM

    John Carlton is my hero.

    Reply
  5. Charles Specht says

    February 24, 2012 at 10:24 AM

    This will be helpful as I’m hoping to “launch” my writing career in this area. Thank you!

    Reply
  6. Joe says

    February 24, 2012 at 10:55 AM

    What a story! Big fan of John Carlton and great to see a legend sharing wisdom here along with his personal tale of rags to riches.

    “Opportunities are like whispers in the wind.”

    “Gun-to-the-head approach to writing.”

    “Copy holds the keys to the kingdom.”

    “Most people want pablum. They’re afraid for their reputation…”

    Pure gold. Look forward to next week!

    Reply
  7. Sheyi says

    February 24, 2012 at 11:30 AM

    I’ve read about John here in Nigeria. Some of the business news paper has written about him and most especially our most respected paper, SDE, I once read about him. It’s good to be a great copy writer as it will help in anything one does in life!

    Sheyi

    Reply
  8. rod says

    February 24, 2012 at 12:46 PM

    Wow, a lot of points to remember. I am now beginning to like writing. Such a great teacher. Looking forward to part two.

    Reply
  9. Dominic Forlizzi says

    February 24, 2012 at 3:24 PM

    Wow? Doesn’t come close.

    Can’t wait for episode 2 – that’s how good this one was.

    Reply
  10. Kasey says

    February 24, 2012 at 4:29 PM

    Loved the “writer’s block is a myth” stance. Carlton is so right and it makes so much sense. Why even sit down to write if you don’t even have an idea? What do you expect?

    Reply
  11. Greg De Tisi says

    February 24, 2012 at 5:36 PM

    Copy Is King Indeed!

    Always a pleasure reading your stuff guys! I am very glad that I stumbled on your site and am now an avid reader and follower!:)

    Cheers

    Greg:)

    Reply
  12. Jason Martin says

    February 25, 2012 at 12:12 AM

    Great interview, looking forward to part two. I particularly agree with his comments on becoming an expert on whatever you’re being paid to write about at the time. To me, the variety and opportunity to learn a market inside out (or as close to it as possible) are what make freelancing so rewarding (irregular pay checks aside).

    Reply
  13. Sanna says

    February 25, 2012 at 1:22 AM

    Love the audio possibilities……….a morning walk with empowering thoughts and ideas is unbeatable:)

    Cheers,

    Sanna

    Reply
  14. Whitney says

    February 25, 2012 at 1:11 PM

    I’m making plans right now to speed read through all of the marketing and copywriting books at the main Chicago Library.

    I think this is one of those rare moments when a piece of advise sticks to me at precisely the right time.

    Reply
    • Dominic Forlizzi says

      February 25, 2012 at 2:32 PM

      Don’t forget the spelling books though. (@ Whitney)

      Reply
      • Whitney says

        February 25, 2012 at 4:04 PM

        What?

        Reply
        • Dominic Forlizzi says

          February 25, 2012 at 8:23 PM

          Advice or advise?

          Reply
          • Whitney says

            February 26, 2012 at 3:08 AM

            Are you so out of touch that you think people should spell check their comments on other people’s blogs?

            All you’re doing is encouraging people to be paranoid about every word they use. It’s a waste of time and ridiculous.

            Get off your high horse.

  15. Archan Mehta says

    February 26, 2012 at 11:24 AM

    Thanks for providing these links. I think that by providing links you are doing us a special favour. More often than not, I try to check out these links–just out of curiosity–and it has never ceased to amaze me about what is available out there. Invariably, the links you provide add value to our work-lives. It is great to discover new writers and new blogs.

    The joy of discovery also leads to new insights and new learning opportunities. There is so much good writing out there, and you make it a point to educate us folks about it. That’s what makes your blog the best in the business. Cheers.

    Reply
  16. Constantin Gabor says

    February 26, 2012 at 3:55 PM

    AMAZING intreview!

    Love the part about “waking people” – yeah, that works.

    Reply
  17. kuong says

    February 27, 2012 at 10:45 AM

    wow… really great talk.

    Thanks for the ideas of reading and rereading again. Totally agree!

    Reply
  18. Tim Bradley, Writer says

    March 5, 2012 at 3:05 PM

    What’s that funny ticking noise that opens the program?

    Reply

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