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How We Built Our Careers Online (And What You Can Learn From It)

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Previous Episode:Interview with Brian Clark: How Customer Experience Maps Help You Develop a Smarter Content Strategy More Episodes Next Episode:The Most Important Lessons You Should Have Learned in 2014

All Episodes:

March 30, 2020

The Advantage of Email Marketing, Featuring Nathan Barry of ConvertKit

March 15, 2020

How to Write Content That Resonates

March 9, 2020

How to Conquer Your Fear of Selling, with Leah Neaderthal

March 2, 2020

How to Build Remarkable Products to Grow Your Business, with Ramit Sethi

February 17, 2020

What You Should Talk about on Your Podcast, with Tara McMullin

February 9, 2020

How to Win at Search in 2020

February 3, 2020

How to Turn Pro as a Freelance Writer

January 27, 2020

Marketing Segmentation and Personalization with Brennan Dunn of RightMessage

January 20, 2020

Podcasting Still Matters, with Pat Flynn from Smart Passive Income

January 13, 2020

The New Look Copyblogger in 2020

January 8, 2020

New Year, New Copyblogger

October 23, 2019

The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur with John Jantsch

October 2, 2019

Consistency Will Take You Further

September 25, 2019

The Past, Present, and Future of Online Learning

September 16, 2019

How to Get More of the Right Things Done

September 9, 2019

Why the Future Is Still Email

September 3, 2019

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August 26, 2019

How Smart, Nimble Companies Are Using Webinars Today

August 19, 2019

The Clarity Method: A Conversation with Tim Brownson

August 12, 2019

Digital Business Trends and the Latest on the Rainmaker Platform

August 5, 2019

4 ‘Naive’ Business Principles for Enduring Success

July 8, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 3: Polishing and Promotion

July 1, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 2: Getting It Written

June 24, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 1: Thinking and Research

June 17, 2019

3 Almost Magical Headline Ingredients for More Traffic, Engagement, and Shares

June 10, 2019

Lessons Any Business Can Learn from an Impressive Influencer Marketing Fail

June 3, 2019

13 Ways of Looking at a Headline

May 27, 2019

The 7 ‘Bad’ Habits of Incredibly Successful People

May 20, 2019

Writers: How to Move from Making a Living to Driving Revenue

May 13, 2019

Choose the Right Frame to Boost the Power of Your Content

May 6, 2019

How Copywriting Teacher Belinda Weaver Reenergized Her Email List for Massive Engagement

April 29, 2019

3 Reasons Why Really Good Writers Sometimes Can’t Find Great Clients

April 22, 2019

3 Slightly Embarrassing Emotions that Drive Effective Copywriting

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April 8, 2019

Becoming the ‘Chief Empathy Officer’ of Your Copy and Content

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One of the Most Important Marketing Decisions You’ll Ever Make

March 18, 2019

What Nobody Wants to Hear about Content Marketing

March 11, 2019

Getting Your Big, Scary Projects Finished: A Conversation about Growing Gills

March 4, 2019

When Is It Time to Bring in a Professional Copywriter?

February 25, 2019

Using Content to Systematically Move Prospects Toward a Purchase

February 18, 2019

Understanding the Lifecycles of Your Website, with Pamela Wilson

February 11, 2019

5 Ways to Manage a Stress-Induced Creative Slump

February 4, 2019

3 Ways Strategic Content Can Drive Measurable Business Outcomes

January 28, 2019

The Social Media Platform Every Content Creator Should Be Using in 2019 (Nope, It’s Not Facebook)

January 21, 2019

Real Talk about Generating High-Quality Content

January 14, 2019

A Conversation with Paul Jarvis about Staying a ‘Company of One’

October 29, 2018

The 3 Plus 1 Foundational Elements of Effective Persuasion

October 22, 2018

5 Essential Copywriting Techniques from Copyblogger

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5 Ways to Recover Your Professional and Creative Confidence

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5 Stinky Sardine Secrets to Make Your Content More Fascinating

September 24, 2018

The Mindset ‘Hack’ that Frees Your Creativity and Makes You Happier

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The 7 Things Writers Need to Make a (Good) Living

August 27, 2018

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August 20, 2018

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August 13, 2018

7 Ways to Boost Your Creativity

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A 10-Step ‘Checklist’ for Your Content Marketing Site

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The 3 Keys to Publishing Strong Content … Even If You Aren’t a ‘Great’ Writer (Yet)

July 23, 2018

Fix These 3 Points of Failure to Get Better Results for Your Content

July 16, 2018

Big Changes at ConvertKit: A Discussion with Founder Nathan Barry

July 9, 2018

3 Skills to Master to Become a Marketing Badass this Year

June 18, 2018

The Quiet Power of Conversational Copy

June 11, 2018

5 Rules of Thumb to Relieve SEO-Induced Stress

June 4, 2018

How to Use the GDPR to Make Your Business Stronger than Ever

May 14, 2018

‘Good Karma’ Selling that Works: A Conversation with Tim Paige

April 30, 2018

How to Get More Comfortable (and Effective) at Selling

April 23, 2018

Privacy and Permission in the Wake of Cambridge Analytica

April 16, 2018

Seth Godin and How to Create Change

April 9, 2018

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The Double-Edged Sword that Can Make (or Break) Your Content

March 19, 2018

Make More Progress by Getting (Gently) Out of Your Comfort Zone

March 12, 2018

Are You Doing Content Marketing Wrong?

March 5, 2018

Storytelling for Modern Content Marketing (Part 2 of 2)

February 26, 2018

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February 19, 2018

10 Quality Factors Search Engines Need to See on Your Site

February 12, 2018

A Simple Content Strategy to Make Your Site Massively More Useful

February 5, 2018

How to Avoid a Heartbreaking Business Failure

January 29, 2018

Hey Writers: Let’s Get You Paid What You’re Worth

January 15, 2018

5 Keys to Making Your Content More Shareable

December 18, 2017

3 Observations on Trends (but not Predictions) for 2018

December 11, 2017

3 Tips Now to Build a Strong Foundation in 2018

December 4, 2017

The 3 Success Factors that Help Writers Earn a Great Living

November 27, 2017

How to Recognize a Great Content Idea

November 20, 2017

How to Cultivate a More Meaningful Gratitude Practice

November 13, 2017

Advice for Poets, Advice for Killers

October 30, 2017

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October 23, 2017

How to Make Smarter Decisions about Your Website

October 2, 2017

A Series of Unfortunate Content Events

September 18, 2017

The Evolution of a Successful Copywriter

August 28, 2017

7 Ways to Improve Your Marketing by Harnessing the Power of Evil

August 14, 2017

Smart Questions from our Brilliant Audience

August 7, 2017

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July 31, 2017

How to Write (Much Better) Blog Comments

July 17, 2017

Which Works Better: Positive or Negative Content?

July 10, 2017

How to Attract the Exact Customers You Want

July 3, 2017

How to Create Stability and Success as an Artist

June 19, 2017

Two Powerful Resources for Life-Changing Growth

June 12, 2017

How to Turn All that Marketing Advice into Action

June 5, 2017

How to Develop a Compelling Marketing Idea in 4 Steps

May 30, 2017

Getting Over the Fear of Selling

May 22, 2017

Talking Community and Digital Business with Tara Gentile

May 15, 2017

Plagiarism, Self-Deception, Bad Sandwiches, and Other Interesting Disasters

May 1, 2017

Professional Writers: Find Out How to Get Certified by Copyblogger

April 17, 2017

The Painful Core Lesson Taught by 3 Astonishing Big-Brand Fails

April 3, 2017

5 Mindset Habits that Actually Work

March 27, 2017

On Grammar, Usage, and Not Being a Great Big Jerk

March 20, 2017

Creative Strategies for Content Writers

March 13, 2017

A New Ultra-Easy Resource for Creating Excellent WordPress Sites

February 20, 2017

Thriving Freelancers and Clients from Hell

February 13, 2017

Politics, Content Marketing, and the 2017 Super Bowl Ads

February 6, 2017

Copyblogger Book Club: Winning the Story Wars

January 23, 2017

3 Content Marketing Strategy Fails (and How to Fix Them)

January 9, 2017

The 2017 Content Excellence Challenge: Your January Assignments

December 19, 2016

Bad Writing Advice: The ‘Post Truth’ Episode

December 12, 2016

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December 5, 2016

The 4 Pillars Every Online Business Is Built On

November 28, 2016

Orbit Media’s Latest Survey of 1000 Bloggers

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Have You Already Missed the Podcasting Gold Rush?

November 7, 2016

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October 31, 2016

5 Quick Wins for Content Marketers

October 24, 2016

Announcing: An Intriguing New Tool for Collaborative Content

October 17, 2016

A New Book to Make Content Marketing Easier

October 10, 2016

Behind the Scenes at Copyblogger: Our New Email Approach

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The ‘Obligatory’ Structure of Effective Content

September 26, 2016

7 Powerful Content Strategies Borrowed from Advertising Masters

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How to Handle Demographic and Psychographic Segmentation (without Looking Like an Idiot)

September 8, 2016

Ethics, Professionalism, and Good Manners for Content Marketers

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3 Questions that Can Haunt Creative Professionals

August 25, 2016

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August 18, 2016

How to Give and Get Exceptional Testimonials, Part One

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August 4, 2016

Content Marketing for Nonprofits

July 28, 2016

The One-Two Punch that Creates the Most Successful Copywriters

July 21, 2016

Pokémon Go: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

July 14, 2016

5 Suggestions When You’re Writing About Controversy

July 7, 2016

Announcing: A Breakthrough Educational Collaboration between Copyblogger and U.C. Davis

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How to Break Past the #1 Conversion Killer

June 23, 2016

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June 9, 2016

Self-Publishing, Side Hustles, and Doing It All: A Conversation with Linda Formichelli

June 2, 2016

A Process for Content Marketing Success

May 26, 2016

Content Marketing Best Practices: Getting Email Opt-Ins

May 19, 2016

Behind the Scenes: Adventures in Advertising

May 12, 2016

Trump, Apple, and Facebook Advertising: Content Marketing News for May, 2016

May 5, 2016

Sally Hogshead and the Art of Fascination

April 28, 2016

Behind the Scenes at the Rainmaker Digital Company Meeting!

April 14, 2016

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April 7, 2016

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March 31, 2016

Content Marketing Success Stories: Fitness Powerhouse Examine.com

March 24, 2016

Behind the Scenes: An Inside Look at the Rainmaker FM Redesign

March 17, 2016

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Should Content Publishers Adopt Google’s New AMP?

March 3, 2016

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February 25, 2016

Content Marketing Shout-Out: Orbit Media and Andy Crestodina

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Content Marketing News for February, 2016

February 4, 2016

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January 28, 2016

The Secret Weapon Behind Great Websites: The Role of the Content Editor

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Behind the Scenes: The Relaunch and Re-Imagining of Copyblogger.com

January 14, 2016

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January 7, 2016

2016 Content Marketing Resolutions

December 28, 2015

The End of The Lede, The Beginning of Copyblogger FM

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October 13, 2015

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September 29, 2015

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Finally — A Podcast about the Superiority of Written Content

September 1, 2015

Hot Seat: Grilling Jerod on Using Audio Content to Seed a Content Arsenal

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July 14, 2015

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July 7, 2015

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June 30, 2015

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June 23, 2015

Why You Should Think Outside the Box About Online Courses

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Rapid-Fire Takeaways from Authority Rainmaker

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The Proper Way to Grow an Audience on Medium

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April 21, 2015

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April 14, 2015

Choose Yourself Part 2: James Altucher Fights Back

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Should We Fear Content Shock? (Or Could It Actually Be a Good Thing?)

March 31, 2015

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March 24, 2015

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February 17, 2015

Sally Hogshead on How You Can Unlock Your Natural Ability to Fascinate

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January 27, 2015

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December 16, 2014

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November 18, 2014

How We Built Our Careers Online (And What You Can Learn From It)

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Interview with Brian Clark: How Customer Experience Maps Help You Develop a Smarter Content Strategy

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How to Ignite a Feeling in Your Audience

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June 26, 2014

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How to Tell a Seductive Story

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How to Write Killer Bullet Points

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How to Write Damn Good Sentences

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February 7, 2014

How to Nail Your Opening

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How to Write a Magnetic Headline (in Under 15 Minutes)

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March 30, 2012

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Jay Baer on How to Turn Interested Prospects into Lifelong Customers

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5 Tips for Affiliate Marketing Beginners

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February 3, 2012

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Answers to the 3 Biggest Email Marketing Questions We Get

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Steven Pressfield and the War of Work

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The Strategy Behind the Copyblogger Redesign

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November 17, 2010

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November 3, 2010

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November 18, 2014

How We Built Our Careers Online (And What You Can Learn From It)

In this episode of The Lede, Demian Farnworth and I share some of our personal stories of success and failure online, in the hopes of inspiring you and educating you (but mostly inspiring you).

The two biggest concerns for the average blogger are obscurity and sustainability.

In other words … for the vast majority of us who set sail creating content online, we want to first develop an audience; and then, once we have an audience, we want to find a way to earn a living from our content.

The first concern can feel daunting enough, because building an audience isn’t easy.

The second concern can feel damn near impossible — because despite countless examples of people who have done it, sometimes we struggle to see ourselves succeeding in the same way.

Which is silly.

So long as you’re willing to take pride in working hard and have a humble heart and mind when it comes to learning from the people who have already done it, you can achieve sustained success online.

Because if we’re here hosting a successful podcast like The Lede for a company as strong as Copyblogger Media, then there really isn’t any reason why you can’t find your path to online success too.

In this episode, Demian Farnworth and I discuss:

  • Our personal stories of success and failure online
  • How to overcome obscurity
  • The scariest part of starting an online business (and how to conquer it)
  • The importance of building an audience that builds your business
  • If we could go back in time 10 or 15 years, knowing what we know now, what would we do differently?
  • What you need to know to start your online business
  • Why many online business models aren’t sustainable
  • Demian’s one critical piece of advice for anyone just starting an online business

Listen to Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing below ...

How We Built Our Careers Online (And What You Can Learn From It)Jerod Morris
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React to The Lede …

As always, we appreciate your reaction to episodes of The Lede and feedback about how we’re doing.

Send us a tweet with your thoughts anytime: @JerodMorris and @DemianFarnworth.

And please tell us the most important point you took away from this latest episode. Do so by joining the discussion over at Google+.

The Show Notes

  • What You Need to Know to Make a Living as a Blogger Right Now — by Demian Farnworth
  • Free New Rainmaker course — the training you need if you want to learn how to earn a living from your blog to continue to do what you love
  • The Copybot — Demian’s website
  • Guest Posting Best Practices From Copyblogger’s Guest Post Gatekeeper — by Stefanie Flaxman
  • Goins, Writer — Jeff Goins’ blog about writing, creativity, and making a difference
  • Midwest Sports Fans — the sports blog Jerod founded
  • Synthesis — superfast and secure WordPress hosting plus content marketing and SEO tools
  • How One Marketing Blog Tripled Its Email Subscribers With 3 Simple Strategies — by Noah Kagan

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The Transcript

Please note that this transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and grammar.

The Lede Podcast: How We Built Our Careers Online (And What You Can Learn From It)

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Lede, a podcast about content marketing by Copyblogger Media. I’m your host, Jerod Morris.

On Monday, November 17, we published a post on Copyblogger titled “What You Need to Know to Make a Living as a Blogger Right Now.” It was written by Demian Farnworth.

In the post, Demian highlights the two biggest concerns for the average blogger: obscurity and sustainability.

In other words, for the vast majority of us who set sail creating content online, we want to first develop an audience, and then once we have an audience, we want to find a way to earn a living from our content.

The first concern can feel daunting enough, because building an audience isn’t easy.

The second concern can feel damn near impossible because despite countless examples of people who have done it — who have built successful, thriving businesses around their online content — sometimes we struggle to see ourselves succeeding in the same way.

Which is silly.

So long as you’re willing to take pride in working hard, and have a humble heart and mind when it comes to learning from the people who have already done it, you can build an audience that drives a sustainable online business.

There is, of course, a sustainability road map.

It’s what Brian Clark and Robert Bruce chart for you in the free New Rainmaker training course that you will find at newrainmaker.com/register.

Go ahead and get started with the two-week course if you aren’t one of the 25,000-plus people who have taken it already.

Our personal stories of success and failure online

In this episode of The Lede, Demian Farnworth and I are going to share some of our personal stories of success and failure online in the hopes of inspiring you and educating you.

But mostly inspiring you, because if we’re here hosting a successful podcast like The Lede for a company as strong as Copyblogger Media, then there really isn’t any reason why you can’t find your path to online success too.

Demian, you love your job, at least based on all of my interactions with you. You seem to love your job. You get to dive deep into work that you really love without having to sacrifice time with your lovely wife and your two incredible kids.

I would say that you have found a way to overcome the obscurity and sustainability concerns you wrote about in your most recent post. How did you get here, and what role did your personal blog, Copybot, play in it?

Demian Farnworth: That’s a great question. Copybot was my business card, and that’s kind of lame, but really: it’s the place, it’s the hub, it’s the place to point people.

It’s also my book, and it’s everything that I need to create visibility, both in the search engines and just the social sphere.

When I quit the corporate world and said I was going to work for myself, I knew that I needed a website, and so I started writing that website, and that allowed me to work through a lot of content that I had created in my mind.

When I was looking for guest writing and freelancing opportunities, I needed somewhere to point people back to — a body of work.

That’s exactly what Copybot allowed me to do, and that’s the purpose that it serves. That’s the body of work that I’ve created.

It’s my portfolio. It’s my resume.

How to overcome obscurity

Jerod: So putting the content out there, creating these posts on Copybot, that kind of got you started with the whole overcoming-the-obscurity part that you talked about in your post.

And then you talked about going out and guest posting using Copybot as that reference. How did you then go from overcoming the obscurity concern, getting the audience, and then to a point of sustainability?

You’re not on your own anymore, but you have a career now that you built on your own. How did you get there?

Demian: I tell everybody I talk to that we all start at the bottom, and I certainly started at the bottom.

I had some connections, but I wasn’t on anybody’s radar as “This is someone you should hire; this is someone who’s doing things.”

There’s not a day that goes by now when I don’t get an email or some sort of response in the social sphere where someone asks to interview me or wants advice, or wants me to guest write.

Clearly, I started out with none of that, and I started out with nobody knowing, virtually, who I was. And so there’s no secret.

This is kind of lame, but it was just simply putting one foot in front of the other and consistently creating that body of work, and reaching out, and creating that work that people admire.

Creating work, like you said, guest posting.

That’s first and foremost one of the best ways in order to expand your visibility, to increase your visibility, and the other thing, too, is to write things about other people that challenges what they say.

There might be some influencer in your industry who you don’t agree with, and so if you do that respectfully in a meaningful, articulate, and powerful way, then people are going to pay attention to that and you’ll get on their radar.

It’s not a flash-in-the-pan type of thing either. You have to do it consistently.

It’s better to be on a slow burn than it is to be firing out with all cylinders and all cannons blazing and stuff like that.

Because a fast rise usually precipitates a fast fall, too — you want a slow, steady burn.

Jerod: Your story is compelling to me especially — and also our audience — because I think your story in particular is closer to what most of our audience experiences than perhaps mine.

I didn’t have the corporate job first, haven’t had a family, so I’ve been able to make a lot of decisions just based on what was best for me in the moment.

You did all of this with a family, having that job, being a little bit more settled.

What I’m curious about, and I think the point that a lot of our listeners, a lot of our audience members get to, and people that I’ve talked to get to when they get to the sustainability concern is that moment of fear, the moment of trepidation, being able to take that leap of faith.

What was your scariest moment? What was that moment of trepidation for you, and how did you overcome it?

The scariest part of starting an online business (and how to conquer it)

Demian: That’s a great question. My scariest moment was the morning after I had turned in my two-weeks notice, because I had nothing else planned, with no job lined up.

I would not recommend anybody do this.

But it came down to points like — no, I’ll let God worry about the future, I need to worry about today, right here. And so I did that, and that was definitely the scariest part.

I had lunch with Jeff Goins a couple of weeks ago, and he and I were talking about that sort of moment, and he had a much better approach.

He actually built the business while he still had a firm, steady job, and he had a wife, and I believe they had a young one at this time.

He had those family concerns, but he built the audience, and then he built the business behind it.

He sold the products that made him a lot of money, and he finally got to the point where he thought “I can do this.”

He will tell you he’s very conservative, and he had way more money than he needed, if there’s such a thing, but he was definitely in a position to say, “Hey, I’m ready to make this move.”

I took that leap partly because that’s just my personality. To be honest, I don’t do anything unless my back is up against the wall.

I’m lazy, I’m passive, and yes, I do have self-discipline. I can keep a job, and I’m loyal to that job, but at the same time, if I need to make a dramatic change in my life, I will.

If I had not made that move, I would not be here.

I would still be stuck in a dead-end job, just moping along, continuing to do the daily grind without the opportunities that I have now.

Despite the pain that I went through, I’m glad I did it. I would never wish or recommend anybody to do it, because there is a better way to do it. However, like I said, I don’t regret that moment.

The importance of building an audience that builds your business

Jerod: I think it’s important to understand, too, that everybody who has succeeded online, going through this process of building an audience, then building a business around that audience, has their own individual story.

A lot of people have your story, where their backs were against the wall for some reason, or they hated what they were doing, and this almost felt like the only way out, or they had to do it.

But it’s not necessarily always some act of desperation.

Demian: Right.

Jerod: I talked about this in the intro — that there is a road map for success doing this. So many people now have succeeded doing it in different ways, with different audiences, for different reasons.

What is the through-line of success, then, for the people who succeed online?

Because ultimately, there are people behind audiences, and behind the businesses that they build.

While everybody has their own story, for people listening and maybe they’re trying to think about if this is the path for them, or maybe they’re at that moment of trepidation themselves, what should they look at in themselves to say, “Okay, if you have this, if you can do this, then you will succeed.”

Demian: The best way to answer is probably to talk about how I learned a lot about myself when I went to work for myself. Because within the first eight months, I realized that I did not want to do this.

I did not like working for myself. I thought I would; I thought it would be the perfect opportunity for someone who’s an introvert and who manages themselves well.

Like I said, I am driven and I have initiative, but about eight months in, I was like “I need to find a job.” I already had the structure, but I realized I didn’t want to build a business.

However, back to Jeff Goins. I’m impressed with him because he had that desire and that drive, and the ability to build that business.

He built the audience, and then his business is basically the membership model with the training courses, so that’s working incredibly well for him.

You have to find out who you are and what you want. You have that drive to build something like a business, and that’s the path you follow.

Even those people who have built full careers, rather than just businesses — Chris Brogan, Seth Godin, those guys — they, again, built audiences and then they built the businesses behind them.

It just begins with going from that point of obscurity, getting the visibility, building the audience, and then figuring out how to monetize that.

Conventional methods for monetization are advertising or affiliate marketing, and there are people who are quite successful at affiliate marketing.

I think those are channels and streams of revenue, but they probably shouldn’t be your sole method.

You would also want to have memberships, forums, training courses, ebooks, and resources. Maybe also do some consultancy at the same time.

Jerod: We talked about this on our editorial call yesterday, actually. And I’m curious to bring this part of the conversation to the listeners.

If we could go back in time 10 or 15 years, knowing what we know now, what would we do differently?

I think Robert asked, “If you could go back in time 10 or 15 years, knowing what you know now, what would you do differently?”

Demian: That’s a good question. I really wasn’t sure how to answer that yesterday, but I’ve given some more time and thought to it.

I wouldn’t go down the corporate path. I would have realized that I’m a maverick and I need to find environments that allow that to be my strength, which Copyblogger does.

I probably would have paid more attention to the Internet, of course, because I paid zero attention until probably the year 2001. What about you? What would you do differently?

Jerod: That’s a great question. Like you, I didn’t know how to answer it when he asked it, but I’ve spent some time thinking about it.

Ten years ago, just like you, I wasn’t really paying attention to the Internet.

I love where I am now, and if you had told me then that I’d be where I am now, I’d have said, “You’re crazy,” because it’s been such a zig-zaggey, roller-coastery ride here that couldn’t have really been predicted.

I would make the conscious choice that this is where I wanted to be, and I think I’d do more to get here faster and to be even further.

Part of that would involve some of the blogging projects I had before, like the sports blog that I had; I’d do that in a much smarter way.

I’ve talked about this before — that kind of flying by the seat of my pants, loving the part of creating content, and enjoying getting traffic, all that was great.

And Midwest Sports Fans generates a lot of revenue, which led to the development of Synthesis.

A lot of positives came out of it, but I didn’t even understand the first part about building an audience.

That site was pretty much obscure a week after a big post if there wasn’t something daily on there because I wasn’t building content assets, right?

It was pretty much the opposite of the Copyblogger model, but I think all of that effort that I put in there early on was so valuable just in terms of learning about content creation and some of the basics.

If I had been smarter then about actually building an audience, building an email list, and building an asset with that, I mean — I shudder to think what that could be now, as valuable as the experience I actually had was.

Demian: Tell me if you think differently, but for me for some reason, that question too, “What would you do differently 10 to 15 years ago if you knew what you knew today?” … I always have trouble with that question.

I think I would not engineer it any differently because, for me, it’s part of the fun. It’s like learning about yourself, right?

That wisdom, that experience, that suffering, the trials and tribulations that you go through. Maybe I’m just sadistic, but I enjoy that because it’s a learning process, and it’s an experiment for me, too.

Both you and I probably think a lot alike in that sense, and I think this is true for a lot of us at Copyblogger. We may not be entrepreneurs, but we have that spirit within us that we want to try something new, we want to try a new initiative.

We’re never short of ideas, and we’re always kind of pushing the envelope and saying, “Hey, what can we do next? How can we do that?” Which, again, is a great opportunity.

I wouldn’t give up the experiences that I went through 10 years ago. Because ultimately what we want is to speed up where we’re at.

We always want that shortcut. But is that fair?

What you need to know to start your online business

Jerod: Here’s the other question I wanted to ask you: what advice would you give to someone listening now?

Someone who reads Copyblogger, who listens to this podcast, who knows that they want to create content, but maybe doesn’t have the perfect vision or plan for what they want to do yet.

Why should he or she get out there anyway? Ten years ago, we couldn’t have really predicted that we’d be where we are now, and I think that’s true for a lot of people in this day and age.

And that’s okay.

Even when you start out online, where you end up online may be completely different from where you started.

Starting out as a sports blogger, ending up at Copyblogger. You can’t really predict that.

What advice would you give to somebody who’s teetering on that line between “Should I do it? Should I not? I don’t really have that perfect plan yet.”

Why should that person do it anyway? Or should they?

Demian: You don’t need the perfect plan.

I was just talking to a good friend who’s kind of branching out on his own. He was saying: “Here is my tagline. This is going to be my unique selling preposition.”

He had four or five, and I said, “Listen. All those are great. Choose one, move forward, because it will change.” It will evolve over time because as you experiment, as you get out there and you do things, it will change.

You will say, “Okay, that’s not working, but some people seem to want to go this way.”

The question you have to answer, though, is: “Do you have the passion, the energy to sustain this long-term?”

If it’s something that you’re considering, it might be a good hobby but if you think “Jeez, I’ll exhaust this in 30 days,” then it’s probably not a good business idea.

Because the one thing that you have to have is that energy to say, “I want to do this. I want to make this happen. I can see myself spending the rest of my life, at least for the next decade and a half or whatever, doing this.”

You’ll need that because the first two years, you’re going to feel like you’re alone.

You need to have that belief and that vision to accomplish what you can, and to sustain it until you get to the point where you have an audience that you can then monetize, that you can then leverage into work, whether it’s for yourself or with another company.

Jerod: Yeah, it’s interesting. Tell me if you agree with this, but I feel like a lot of times people’s perceptions get flipped about what it’s like to create success online.

I think people think that it will be easy in the sense that it doesn’t require as much work, but they also may be intimidated because the technology part is hard.

I actually think it’s the opposite.

Like I talked about: The road map is there, right?

The New Rainmaker training course is one example of a road map that shows you how to get to that point of sustainability.

So many other people have charted that course — that part is actually simple.

But I think it’s the other part: the daily grind, to use that term. And just like you said, the passion to do it consistently over time. That’s really the harder part, where more people fail.

But it doesn’t have to be if you have mentors and study the examples of others. Do you find that, too? Do you agree with that?

Why many online business models aren’t sustainable

Demian: I do, and I think your experience is a great example with the Midwest Sports. You had a quick rise to success and fame, but did you have the long-term sustainability?

Because it is hard work.

That’s the truth. And for me, it is a lot harder because once you have the visibility and people are looking at you, there’s a lot more pressure in order to perform.

My biggest fear is that I will become stale, I will become routine, I will become predictable. And I don’t want to do that.

For me it’s always constant — I want to beat everything I’ve done previously. And that’s a lesson that I learned.

I remember I waited tables for about six months. I was absolutely terrible at it. But I got great advice from a server who was really good.

He said, “You’re only as good as your last table.”

Whatever he meant by that, which I’m not 100 percent sure, but I interpreted it, the young, impressionable 21-year-old I was, as: “You have to continually improve and beat each time. Each table is an opportunity to excel from what you did last time.”

That’s the pressure that I’m on now, and so when I come to a piece of work, again, I deal with that procrastination of thinking, “Shoot. How am I going to make this the best thing that I’ve ever created?”

There’s a lot more pressure because a lot more people are looking at you and expecting things from you.

Jerod: It’s funny, thinking back. Midwest Sports Fans are still going today, although I’m not active on it on a daily basis. It’s funny. The passion, the excitement, was never the problem.

I always woke up excited to create content. What eventually killed it, though, was having such a poor strategy where you essentially start over every day.

One of the reasons why that strategy was poor is because I didn’t have enough humility. I thought I had all the answers, and thought, “Okay, this is working. I don’t really need to study and figure out the next step. This is working; let me just keep doing it.”

Eventually the flame started to flicker out a little bit because it’s like, “Man, it’s the same thing all the time.”

If you’re not actually building an audience and building assets with your content, then you’re just like a hamster on a wheel.

Every day you start over just trying to drive traffic for the page view based ad revenue, which is a model, but that can kill that passion too.

I think long-term you really want to study the successful models and figure out a way to build assets that aren’t just going to lose value the next day.

Because that will kill your passion. That’ll kill your excitement for it.

Demian’s one critical piece of advice for anyone just starting an online business

Demian: Right. Right.

Jerod: Well Demian, this has been fascinating. I love talking with you about your history, your path, your journey.

Which is why we wanted to take a little break from doing the series that we’ve been doing on The Lede and have a more personal episode that talks about our experiences.

Hopefully we’ll hear some of your stories in the comments on Google+ or Twitter.

Or email us: Jerod [at] copyblogger [dot] com or Demian [at] copyblogger [dot] com.

Tell us your story. Because they’re interesting, and we love hearing them.

Although we all have our own individual stories, there are a lot of through-points that we all experience, that we can relate to and help each other out with.

Always a fun conversation, Mr. Farnworth.

Demian: Thank you. I appreciate it.

I’ll just end with this: I’m always really kind of surprised and I’m always humbled when someone says, “You’ve inspired me,” or I get an e-mail of encouragement.

To me, that’s how I know what I’m doing is working.

I’ve been given — we’ve all been given — a talent. Something to do.

I think the best response to that talent, which I consider a gift, is to become the best you can absolutely be at that and that alone.

They’ll be ups and downs.

The point is, just be grateful for whatever attention you get. Because, ultimately, “I have so many followers on Twitter” is not what count. What counts is the lives you touch and the relationships you form, if that makes sense.

Be grateful for whatever you get. Always be grateful. That’s helped me enormously.

Jerod: Great final thought to end on, Demian. Thank you.

Demian: You bet.

Jerod: We’ll talk in a couple of weeks and get another series started.

Demian: Sounds good.

Jerod: All right, man. Bye.

Demian: Bye.

Jerod: Thank you, everybody, for tuning in to this episode of The Lede.

If you enjoyed this episode, and if you like what you’ve been hearing from us on The Lede, please consider giving the show a rating or a review on iTunes. We would greatly appreciate it.

And don’t forget that you can listen to The Lede on Stitcher as well: Just go to copyblogger.com/stitcher and it will redirect you to The Lede page on Stitcher.

Thank you again for listening. We will be back in a couple of weeks with another new episode of The Lede. Talk to you soon, everybody.

# # #

*Credits: Both the intro (“Bridge to Nowhere” by Sam Roberts Band) and outro songs (“Down in the Valley” by The Head and the Heart) are graciously provided by express written consent from the rights owners.

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