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7-Figure Small with Brian Clark
Confessions of a Pink-Haired Marketer
Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing
Get More Clients With Smarter Email Marketing
Hack the Entrepreneur
Members Only
Rainmaker.FM Elsewhere
Site Success: Tips for Building Better WordPress Websites
StudioPress FM
Technology Translated
The Digital Entrepreneur
The Missing Link
The Showrunner
The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience
Youpreneur with Chris Ducker
Zero to Book
Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing
hosted by Darrell Vesterfelt and Tim Stoddart

Seth Godin and How to Create Change

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Previous Episode:Email? Chatbots? Social? How Are We Supposed to Reach People? More Episodes Next Episode:Privacy and Permission in the Wake of Cambridge Analytica

All Episodes:

March 30, 2020

The Advantage of Email Marketing, Featuring Nathan Barry of ConvertKit

March 15, 2020

How to Write Content That Resonates

March 9, 2020

How to Conquer Your Fear of Selling, with Leah Neaderthal

March 2, 2020

How to Build Remarkable Products to Grow Your Business, with Ramit Sethi

February 17, 2020

What You Should Talk about on Your Podcast, with Tara McMullin

February 9, 2020

How to Win at Search in 2020

February 3, 2020

How to Turn Pro as a Freelance Writer

January 27, 2020

Marketing Segmentation and Personalization with Brennan Dunn of RightMessage

January 20, 2020

Podcasting Still Matters, with Pat Flynn from Smart Passive Income

January 13, 2020

The New Look Copyblogger in 2020

January 8, 2020

New Year, New Copyblogger

October 23, 2019

The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur with John Jantsch

October 2, 2019

Consistency Will Take You Further

September 25, 2019

The Past, Present, and Future of Online Learning

September 16, 2019

How to Get More of the Right Things Done

September 9, 2019

Why the Future Is Still Email

September 3, 2019

What’s Next for
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August 26, 2019

How Smart, Nimble Companies Are Using Webinars Today

August 19, 2019

The Clarity Method: A Conversation with Tim Brownson

August 12, 2019

Digital Business Trends and the Latest on the Rainmaker Platform

August 5, 2019

4 ‘Naive’ Business Principles for Enduring Success

July 8, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 3: Polishing and Promotion

July 1, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 2: Getting It Written

June 24, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 1: Thinking and Research

June 17, 2019

3 Almost Magical Headline Ingredients for More Traffic, Engagement, and Shares

June 10, 2019

Lessons Any Business Can Learn from an Impressive Influencer Marketing Fail

June 3, 2019

13 Ways of Looking at a Headline

May 27, 2019

The 7 ‘Bad’ Habits of Incredibly Successful People

May 20, 2019

Writers: How to Move from Making a Living to Driving Revenue

May 13, 2019

Choose the Right Frame to Boost the Power of Your Content

May 6, 2019

How Copywriting Teacher Belinda Weaver Reenergized Her Email List for Massive Engagement

April 29, 2019

3 Reasons Why Really Good Writers Sometimes Can’t Find Great Clients

April 22, 2019

3 Slightly Embarrassing Emotions that Drive Effective Copywriting

April 15, 2019

Get 10 Content Marketing Boosters in 20 Minutes

April 8, 2019

Becoming the ‘Chief Empathy Officer’ of Your Copy and Content

April 1, 2019

One of the Most Important Marketing Decisions You’ll Ever Make

March 18, 2019

What Nobody Wants to Hear about Content Marketing

March 11, 2019

Getting Your Big, Scary Projects Finished: A Conversation about Growing Gills

March 4, 2019

When Is It Time to Bring in a Professional Copywriter?

February 25, 2019

Using Content to Systematically Move Prospects Toward a Purchase

February 18, 2019

Understanding the Lifecycles of Your Website, with Pamela Wilson

February 11, 2019

5 Ways to Manage a Stress-Induced Creative Slump

February 4, 2019

3 Ways Strategic Content Can Drive Measurable Business Outcomes

January 28, 2019

The Social Media Platform Every Content Creator Should Be Using in 2019 (Nope, It’s Not Facebook)

January 21, 2019

Real Talk about Generating High-Quality Content

January 14, 2019

A Conversation with Paul Jarvis about Staying a ‘Company of One’

October 29, 2018

The 3 Plus 1 Foundational Elements of Effective Persuasion

October 22, 2018

5 Essential Copywriting Techniques from Copyblogger

October 15, 2018

5 Ways to Recover Your Professional and Creative Confidence

October 8, 2018

5 Stinky Sardine Secrets to Make Your Content More Fascinating

September 24, 2018

The Mindset ‘Hack’ that Frees Your Creativity and Makes You Happier

September 18, 2018

How to Kill Your Sales and Mess up Your Business: Lessons from a Used Car Salesman

September 4, 2018

The 7 Things Writers Need to Make a (Good) Living

August 27, 2018

Are You Making These Social Media Marketing Mistakes?

August 20, 2018

Fix These 7 About Page Mistakes for More Traffic and (Possibly) Better SEO

August 13, 2018

7 Ways to Boost Your Creativity

August 6, 2018

A 10-Step ‘Checklist’ for Your Content Marketing Site

July 30, 2018

The 3 Keys to Publishing Strong Content … Even If You Aren’t a ‘Great’ Writer (Yet)

July 23, 2018

Fix These 3 Points of Failure to Get Better Results for Your Content

July 16, 2018

Big Changes at ConvertKit: A Discussion with Founder Nathan Barry

July 9, 2018

3 Skills to Master to Become a Marketing Badass this Year

June 18, 2018

The Quiet Power of Conversational Copy

June 11, 2018

5 Rules of Thumb to Relieve SEO-Induced Stress

June 4, 2018

How to Use the GDPR to Make Your Business Stronger than Ever

May 14, 2018

‘Good Karma’ Selling that Works: A Conversation with Tim Paige

April 30, 2018

How to Get More Comfortable (and Effective) at Selling

April 23, 2018

Privacy and Permission in the Wake of Cambridge Analytica

April 16, 2018

Seth Godin and How to Create Change

April 9, 2018

Email? Chatbots? Social? How Are We Supposed to Reach People?

March 26, 2018

The Double-Edged Sword that Can Make (or Break) Your Content

March 19, 2018

Make More Progress by Getting (Gently) Out of Your Comfort Zone

March 12, 2018

Are You Doing Content Marketing Wrong?

March 5, 2018

Storytelling for Modern Content Marketing (Part 2 of 2)

February 26, 2018

Storytelling for Modern Content Marketing (Part 1 of 2)

February 19, 2018

10 Quality Factors Search Engines Need to See on Your Site

February 12, 2018

A Simple Content Strategy to Make Your Site Massively More Useful

February 5, 2018

How to Avoid a Heartbreaking Business Failure

January 29, 2018

Hey Writers: Let’s Get You Paid What You’re Worth

January 15, 2018

5 Keys to Making Your Content More Shareable

December 18, 2017

3 Observations on Trends (but not Predictions) for 2018

December 11, 2017

3 Tips Now to Build a Strong Foundation in 2018

December 4, 2017

The 3 Success Factors that Help Writers Earn a Great Living

November 27, 2017

How to Recognize a Great Content Idea

November 20, 2017

How to Cultivate a More Meaningful Gratitude Practice

November 13, 2017

Advice for Poets, Advice for Killers

October 30, 2017

Face Your Business Fears on Halloween Week

October 23, 2017

How to Make Smarter Decisions about Your Website

October 2, 2017

A Series of Unfortunate Content Events

September 18, 2017

The Evolution of a Successful Copywriter

August 28, 2017

7 Ways to Improve Your Marketing by Harnessing the Power of Evil

August 14, 2017

Smart Questions from our Brilliant Audience

August 7, 2017

Does the Web Have Enough Patience for Your In-Depth Content?

July 31, 2017

How to Write (Much Better) Blog Comments

July 17, 2017

Which Works Better: Positive or Negative Content?

July 10, 2017

How to Attract the Exact Customers You Want

July 3, 2017

How to Create Stability and Success as an Artist

June 19, 2017

Two Powerful Resources for Life-Changing Growth

June 12, 2017

How to Turn All that Marketing Advice into Action

June 5, 2017

How to Develop a Compelling Marketing Idea in 4 Steps

May 30, 2017

Getting Over the Fear of Selling

May 22, 2017

Talking Community and Digital Business with Tara Gentile

May 15, 2017

Plagiarism, Self-Deception, Bad Sandwiches, and Other Interesting Disasters

May 1, 2017

Professional Writers: Find Out How to Get Certified by Copyblogger

April 17, 2017

The Painful Core Lesson Taught by 3 Astonishing Big-Brand Fails

April 3, 2017

5 Mindset Habits that Actually Work

March 27, 2017

On Grammar, Usage, and Not Being a Great Big Jerk

March 20, 2017

Creative Strategies for Content Writers

March 13, 2017

A New Ultra-Easy Resource for Creating Excellent WordPress Sites

February 20, 2017

Thriving Freelancers and Clients from Hell

February 13, 2017

Politics, Content Marketing, and the 2017 Super Bowl Ads

February 6, 2017

Copyblogger Book Club: Winning the Story Wars

January 23, 2017

3 Content Marketing Strategy Fails (and How to Fix Them)

January 9, 2017

The 2017 Content Excellence Challenge: Your January Assignments

December 19, 2016

Bad Writing Advice: The ‘Post Truth’ Episode

December 12, 2016

Get Ready Now for a Creative and Productive 2017

December 5, 2016

The 4 Pillars Every Online Business Is Built On

November 28, 2016

Orbit Media’s Latest Survey of 1000 Bloggers

November 14, 2016

Have You Already Missed the Podcasting Gold Rush?

November 7, 2016

Getting More Traffic, Links, and Shares to Your Content

October 31, 2016

5 Quick Wins for Content Marketers

October 24, 2016

Announcing: An Intriguing New Tool for Collaborative Content

October 17, 2016

A New Book to Make Content Marketing Easier

October 10, 2016

Behind the Scenes at Copyblogger: Our New Email Approach

October 3, 2016

The ‘Obligatory’ Structure of Effective Content

September 26, 2016

7 Powerful Content Strategies Borrowed from Advertising Masters

September 15, 2016

How to Handle Demographic and Psychographic Segmentation (without Looking Like an Idiot)

September 8, 2016

Ethics, Professionalism, and Good Manners for Content Marketers

September 1, 2016

3 Questions that Can Haunt Creative Professionals

August 25, 2016

How to Give and Get Exceptional Testimonials, Part Two

August 18, 2016

How to Give and Get Exceptional Testimonials, Part One

August 11, 2016

Are You Leaving Money on the Table with Weak Headlines?

August 4, 2016

Content Marketing for Nonprofits

July 28, 2016

The One-Two Punch that Creates the Most Successful Copywriters

July 21, 2016

Pokémon Go: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

July 14, 2016

5 Suggestions When You’re Writing About Controversy

July 7, 2016

Announcing: A Breakthrough Educational Collaboration between Copyblogger and U.C. Davis

June 30, 2016

How to Break Past the #1 Conversion Killer

June 23, 2016

The New Age of Marketing Automation: Powerful, Simple, Cost-Effective

June 16, 2016

How to Make a (Really Good) Living as a Freelance Writer

June 9, 2016

Self-Publishing, Side Hustles, and Doing It All: A Conversation with Linda Formichelli

June 2, 2016

A Process for Content Marketing Success

May 26, 2016

Content Marketing Best Practices: Getting Email Opt-Ins

May 19, 2016

Behind the Scenes: Adventures in Advertising

May 12, 2016

Trump, Apple, and Facebook Advertising: Content Marketing News for May, 2016

May 5, 2016

Sally Hogshead and the Art of Fascination

April 28, 2016

Behind the Scenes at the Rainmaker Digital Company Meeting!

April 14, 2016

Social Media News, Social Media Constants

April 7, 2016

Strategies for B2B Podcasting, with Clark Buckner

March 31, 2016

Content Marketing Success Stories: Fitness Powerhouse Examine.com

March 24, 2016

Behind the Scenes: An Inside Look at the Rainmaker FM Redesign

March 17, 2016

Our Latest Advice and Resources for Digital Business Owners

March 10, 2016

Should Content Publishers Adopt Google’s New AMP?

March 3, 2016

7 Ways to Get Smarter with Social Media Listening

February 25, 2016

Content Marketing Shout-Out: Orbit Media and Andy Crestodina

February 18, 2016

The Tactic You Should Steal from Copyblogger

February 11, 2016

Content Marketing News for February, 2016

February 4, 2016

Email Marketing: The Misunderstood Powerhouse

January 28, 2016

The Secret Weapon Behind Great Websites: The Role of the Content Editor

January 21, 2016

Behind the Scenes: The Relaunch and Re-Imagining of Copyblogger.com

January 14, 2016

Trends and Predictions for Digital Commerce: A Conversation with Brian Clark

January 7, 2016

2016 Content Marketing Resolutions

December 28, 2015

The End of The Lede, The Beginning of Copyblogger FM

November 10, 2015

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November 3, 2015

Long or Short? The Content Length Question Answered, Once and For All

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October 20, 2015

The Surprising Truth about Earning a Profit from Your Content

October 13, 2015

How to Move Your Audience From Infatuation to Love

October 6, 2015

3 Things Your Audience Wants You to Know about Useful Content

September 29, 2015

Revisiting Authenticity: What It Is, What It’s Not, and Why It Matters

September 22, 2015

Publishing Lessons from Dave Pell, the Most Fascinating Email Newsletter Writer in the Business

September 15, 2015

Why Content Creators Should Kiss Their Programmers

September 8, 2015

Finally — A Podcast about the Superiority of Written Content

September 1, 2015

Hot Seat: Grilling Jerod on Using Audio Content to Seed a Content Arsenal

August 25, 2015

How to Optimize Your Headlines for Content Discovery with Vinegar (Before You Die of Cholera)

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August 11, 2015

Lede Potpourri: A Big Idea, Talking About Demian Behind His Back, and Lessons from #PM15

August 4, 2015

How to Attend an Industry Conference Like a Boss

July 28, 2015

Getting the Most Out of a Conference When You’re There to Promote, Part 1

July 21, 2015

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July 14, 2015

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July 7, 2015

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June 30, 2015

Why The Phrase ‘Leaders Are Readers’ Should Die

June 23, 2015

Why You Should Think Outside the Box About Online Courses

June 16, 2015

The Proper (and Safe) Way to Republish Old Articles

June 9, 2015

How to Grow an Audience on LinkedIn by Repurposing Content

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Key Takeaways from Three-and-a-Half Hours with Henry Rollins

May 27, 2015

Rapid-Fire Takeaways from Authority Rainmaker

May 19, 2015

The Proper Way to Grow an Audience on Medium

May 12, 2015

The Introvert’s Guide to Launching a Successful Podcast

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The One Quality All Popular Podcasts Share

April 28, 2015

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April 21, 2015

Do We Celebrate Failure Too Much?

April 14, 2015

Choose Yourself Part 2: James Altucher Fights Back

April 7, 2015

Should We Fear Content Shock? (Or Could It Actually Be a Good Thing?)

March 31, 2015

Should You Really ‘Walk in the Direction of Your Fear’?

March 24, 2015

Is ‘Choose Yourself’ Good Advice … or New-Age Phooey?

March 17, 2015

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Dan Pink on How to Succeed in the New Era of Selling

February 24, 2015

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February 17, 2015

Sally Hogshead on How You Can Unlock Your Natural Ability to Fascinate

February 10, 2015

How to Learn from Your Successes

January 27, 2015

How to Learn From Your Mistakes

January 13, 2015

Lessons Learned from Conducting Two Monster Audience Surveys

December 16, 2014

Adaptive Content: A Trend to Pay Attention to in 2015

December 2, 2014

The Most Important Lessons You Should Have Learned in 2014

November 18, 2014

How We Built Our Careers Online (And What You Can Learn From It)

November 4, 2014

Interview with Brian Clark: How Customer Experience Maps Help You Develop a Smarter Content Strategy

October 21, 2014

How Empathy Maps Help You Speak Directly to the Hearts of Your Audience

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How to Ignite a Feeling in Your Audience

September 23, 2014

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June 26, 2014

How to Curate Knowledge, Turn it Into Wisdom, and Build Your Audience

June 19, 2014

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June 13, 2014

The 5 W’s of Link Curation

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May 30, 2014

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May 23, 2014

The 2 Reasons People Don’t Click on Your Buttons … And How to Overcome Them

May 16, 2014

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May 2, 2014

How to Close With Style

April 25, 2014

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April 17, 2014

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April 11, 2014

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April 4, 2014

How to Use Internal Cliffhangers

March 28, 2014

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March 21, 2014

How to Tell a Seductive Story

March 14, 2014

How to Create Exquisite Subheads

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How to Write Killer Bullet Points

February 28, 2014

How to Write Damn Good Sentences

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Michael Stelzner on Capturing Emails and Committing to Quality

February 7, 2014

How to Nail Your Opening

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March 30, 2012

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Introducing Copyblogger Radio

April 16, 2018

Seth Godin and How to Create Change

A conversation about what matters in marketing and business.

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I was delighted to be able to catch up with our friend and one of my favorite teachers, Seth Godin. In this 19-minute conversation, we talk about:

  • The fundamental shift in how Seth sees marketing differently
  • His thoughts on fake news and the “post-truth” online environment
  • The stories we tell in business without realizing we’re telling them
  • An approach when you don’t feel you have the authority to try something different
  • The reason most marketers are drowning, and a different approach

Listen to Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing below ...

Seth Godin and How to Create ChangeSonia Simone
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The Show Notes

  • If you’re ready to see for yourself why more than 201,344 website owners trust StudioPress — the industry standard for premium WordPress themes and plugins — swing by StudioPress.com for all the details.
  • Seth will be re-opening his 200-day The Marketing Seminar project later this summer. You can sign up here to be notified when they re-open. Disclosure: After Seth and I recorded this podcast, he was kind enough to offer me complimentary access to the seminar. This is not, however, an affiliate link. If you happen to see me there, say hi!
  • Seth’s blog has been a source of counterintuitive insights, interesting questions, and different approaches to marketing for many years now.
  • I’m always happy to see your questions or thoughts on Twitter @soniasimone — or right here in the comments!

The Transcript

Seth Godin and How to Create Change

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.

Sonia Simone: Copyblogger FM is brought to you by the all-new StudioPress Sites, a turnkey solution that combines the ease of an all-in-one website builder with the flexible power of WordPress. It’s perfect for bloggers, podcasters, and affiliate marketers, as well as those of you who are selling physical products, digital downloads, or membership programs.

If you’re ready to take your WordPress site to the next level, see for yourself why more than 200,000 website owners trust StudioPress. You can check it out by going to Rainmaker.FM/StudioPress.

Hey there. Good to see you again. Welcome back to Copyblogger FM, the content marketing podcast. Copyblogger FM is about emerging content marketing trends, interesting disasters, and enduring best practices, along with the occasional rant.

My name is Sonia Simone. I am the chief content officer for Rainmaker Digital, and I like to hang out with the folks who do the heavy lifting over on the Copyblogger blog. You can get additional links, additional resources, and a complete show archive by pointing your browser to Copyblogger.FM.

I am attempting to have some dignity here and not overly fangirl myself. But I am super charmed that our great teacher and friend Seth Godin is here today to talk with us about stories, marketing, communication, and all kinds of good stuff.

Seth, welcome. I’m so pleased you’re here.

Seth Godin: Well, I’m not shy. I’m getting all fanboy over being with you. So, it’s a pleasure Sonia. How’ve you been?

Sonia Simone: I’ve been wonderful. I hope you’re well.

Seth Godin: Things are good, yes. Thanks.

Sonia Simone: Anyone who pays any attention to me knows, because I always try to give credit where I get ideas, that your work has had a lot of influence on me. And specifically on how I think about marketing, and what I think marketing actually is.

How we define it in a world where marketing is, in a lot of cases and for a lot of people, essentially synonymous with telling lies that you may or may not get caught out on.

I would be interested to ask you, what do you believe about marketing that most other people don’t seem to believe about marketing?

The Fundamental Shift in How Seth Sees Marketing Differently

Seth Godin: Well, I think the fork in the road is, are we doing marketing to people or are we doing it with them?

When the Internet started to show up 20 years ago, 30 years ago, what heartened me about it was that there was going to be a fundamental shift in power. And that humans were going to have the ability to take back their attention, to take back their privacy, and to take back their choice. That has been at the heart of my work all this time.

There is a large contingent of people who want it to be the other way. They want marketing to have victors and to have victims, and they want to take what data they can and just take it. They want to trick people, hype people, scam people. Go for the short-term, play the behavioral economics game, and generally play a game to win.

For me, marketing isn’t that. Marketing is an infinite game. It’s something that we get to do. And if we do it well, it’s something that makes both sides glad they engaged.

Sonia Simone: I think that’s very resonant for me, certainly.

I’m curious to digress a little bit. We’re in such an amazing period of time with the Internet, with how it has shaped how we talk to each other, how we broadcast, and the kinds of things we share. Any thoughts on this insane, crazy, post-truth, alternative-fact environment?

I started out online with a lot of idealism that we were all going to be able to know and no one was ever going to be able to tell a lie because the Internet, just the crowd, would crowdsource the truth. So that didn’t turn out.

Any thoughts, any reaction to this kind of amazing and challenging time we’re in?

Seth’s Thoughts on Fake News and the ‘Post-Truth’ Online Environment

Seth Godin: Well, I think it’s worth noting that the dominant media narrative of any given moment rarely is accurate. It’s just the dominant media narrative. So if 50,000 people had voted differently in November, the narrative today would be totally different even though the world would not have … the underlying sources would not have changed one bit.

There’s always been a division between civil scientific method discourse on what’s right and what’s not, the motion and belief, and what we want to have happen.

So you could watch people in 1958 have a fist fight over Ford versus Chevy. Ford versus Chevy is not a cut-and-dried conversation. It’s emotional, and it’s tribal. It’s attitudinal. And the same thing is true now.

Has there always been ‘fake news’? Yes. Has it been weaponized and industrialized like it is now? Of course not.

What we know is that human beings are still making decisions the way they always did. Some of them make decisions in certain situations quite rationally and in other situations emotionally and based on tribal alliance or their personal history. That’s how we end up with religion, and it’s how we end up with people who want to drive a Harley or anything else.

I think that as a marketer, what we get to do is understand that we can get to pick which conversation we’re about to have. Are we about to have a conversation based on facts and checklists and RFPs, or are we more likely having a conversation based on humanity and who we think we are when we look in the mirror?

Sonia Simone: One thing that I’ve seen you write about, speak about over the years is telling stories. Something that I find fascinating about telling stories is that every one of us pretty much tells stories all the time with our friends and our family.

We have all these little stories. It’s how we keep each other current on what’s going on in our day. Then as soon as we get to point where we’re trying to tell a story in a business context, we get real weird. It’s hard, it’s awkward, and we don’t know how to do it anymore.

So I wanted your thoughts on that. And do you have any thoughts on — because I know that you believe in storytelling, I think anybody who understands human cognition, just observes, storytelling matters a lot.

Any thoughts on why we get so noted up, and maybe advice on how to be less insane about this?

The Stories We Tell in Business Without Realizing We’re Telling Them

Seth Godin: I think that’s a profound insight, Sonia.

Let’s be really clear, though, about what a story is. Little Red Riding Hood is clearly a story. But there are also stories like the tone of your voice on this podcast. You sound informed, calm, and connected. That’s a story. You might have woken up on the wrong side of the bed, it might not be how you feel right this minute. But it comes through.

So we tell a story whether we think we are telling a story or not. In business, we’re often telling the story of “I am profoundly uncomfortable, and I’m going to rely on the base level of facts so that I will not be held responsible.” We don’t tell stories like that when we’re offering a four-year-old an ice-cream cone. But we feel like, in a work setting, we have been hired to just be a middle man, to not own it.

If you don’t own it, it’s very hard to find the freedom and the foundation to actually tell a story that resonates.

Sonia Simone: That’s very interesting, because one of the reasons I started a business is I got very frustrated about having a story I thought was meaningful and worth telling in an organization, but I couldn’t get the mojo right to tell that story. I couldn’t get permission to tell a story I thought was meaningful, truthful, and valuable.

Any thoughts on that? On people who are in organizations, where maybe so often, the people who do the work are so smart. And it’s hard for organizations to see how wise their own people are. So if somebody’s wise or just perceived something, has something they want to say that they think is real and useful, but having a hard time getting it approved in their organization.

Seth Godin: Well, I’m not sure I have enough time to go into all of the details. Let me try to just …

Sonia Simone: A quick answer would be fine, yeah.

An Approach When You Don’t Feel You Have the Authority to Try Something Different

Seth Godin: Short version goes like this: We want authority. We want a badge. We want a permit.

The reason we want authority is so we can tell other people what to do, and so we’re off the hook when we do it because we have a badge. But what organizations are bad at is giving out authority.

It turns out, on the other hand, we can take responsibility. And most organizations will let people take responsibility. If you start doing that, while giving away credit, you will discover that you get more of it.

If you take responsibility for the repercussions of the story you are telling, if you take responsibility for being human and having empathy as you approach someone who needs to hear from you, I think the whole game changes.

Part of it is the story we tell ourselves about what we do around here and what our job is.

Sonia Simone: Yeah, I like that a lot.

All right, I do want to touch on — you have a project that sounds like it’s been in the work for quite a while. It’s a seminar, and it is a little different. The format’s a little different.

So I do want to talk about that. Because I’m very interested in it, and I think a lot of people listening to this call would be interested in knowing more about it. So can you kind of let us know what it is, how it works, all that good stuff.

The Most Effective Thing That Seth Believes He’s Ever Done

Seth Godin: I’d be delighted.

I’m a teacher, and I’m not doing what I do to get likes or clicks or have people look at ads. I’m actually trying to make change happen.

In thinking about how online learning works, the first thing I built was the altMBA, which is an intensive 30-day workshop that takes people from around the world and has coaches and live discussion groups. You have to apply to get in.

It worked great. It’s the most effective thing I think I’ve ever done. But I also learned that a lot of people can’t make that sort of commitment. So I thought about how else could we make change happen that doesn’t just involve putting up some videos.

So I built The Marketing Seminar, which you can find at TheMarketingSeminar.com. The idea is that it’s a 100-day seminar. And every other day, 50 times, I’ll post a video lesson. Then people go in to discussion groups to talk to each other, to work it out, to contribute to each other’s work. Because that’s where the real learning happens.

Thousands of people are in it.

Anyway, it’s at TheMarketingSeminar.com. And I explain it there better than I could explain it here.

Basically, I believe that humility, empathy, and effectiveness are significant factors in marketing that almost everyone in the traditional marketing world has overlooked in favor of clicks, numbers, and false metrics.

My hope is that people from nonprofits, big companies, and entrepreneurs and freelancers will engage in this community. Because I’m in the business of making change happen, and this is my best shot at doing that.

Sonia Simone: That’s interesting. I was just looking at the description of the project, and I found some words, and I thought they were intriguing. So I thought I would ask you about them.

“This is a seminar about building a machine, a marketing machine. A process and a practice that produces value daily.” Again, I thought that was fascinating, because I think I have a decent handle on the humility and empathy part of your message. Effectiveness is always something that I can put some more time on. But that machine, I thought that was such an interesting metaphor for you to choose. And so I was curious about where that was coming from.

Seth Godin: The first year I had my blog, 200 or 300 people read it. And the question one would ask is, “How long should you keep doing that before you stop?”

If you think about Airbnb during its opening months or you think about Facebook during its opening years, the question is, “What did you add to the asset today? What did you add to the asset yesterday?” Because if you’re counting on winning in one swoop, you’re playing a short-term game. And if you’re playing a short-term game, you cannot possibly have humility. You cannot possibly have patience.

So the only way to be able to present to the market with both the enthusiasm, the confidence, and the humility that’s going to be necessary is to realize you have to build an asset. Day by day, drip by drip.

Too often we miss that, because everyone’s always promising us the secret and the shortcut. I believe that the most direct shortcut is the really, really long way. That is what happens when you get a virtuous cycle.

So the idea of a machine is that every day, we are layering something on top of the thing we did yesterday. And over time we move from the early adopters, who are eager to dance with us, to the people in the middle of the market, who are basing their decisions on what the early adopters told them. If we look at the arc of Copyblogger, that’s exactly what you guys have done.

Sonia Simone: For sure. It’s interesting. My attempt, some years back, in channeling Yogi Berra, I once said that, “Don’t take shortcuts, they take too long.”

Seth Godin: There you go.

Sonia Simone: I have consistently found that to be absolutely, literally true. That the more shortcuts you take, the more you just delay getting to the point that you want to get to.

Seth Godin: It’s so hard for people to hear that.

Sonia Simone: It’s hard.

The Reason Most Marketers Are Drowning — and a Different Approach

Seth Godin: I’m so glad you said it so cogently, because many people who do marketing are drowning. We’re drowning because we’ve made big promises to people.

The average CMO lasts 18 months before she gets fired, because they’ve expanded those promises in their head to come to the conclusion that if they just make average stuff for average people and give the marketer some money, all problems will go away.

Faced with trying to keep that promise, marketing is super stressful. So I think we have to begin by making a different promise. And once we make that promise, we can follow your insightful advice and stop looking for shortcuts.

Sonia Simone: Yeah. I’m gonna ask you a goofy question, because I don’t think that humility lets us, in a way, think about this.

Assuming you were okay with just changing what people think with a magic wand, and you had a magic wand, is there some belief that you would at least invite people to consider? If you could just wave a magic wand and people would think about something differently, what do you think it might be?

What Seth Would Change about How People Think

Seth Godin: Can I have two?

Sonia Simone: Yeah.

Seth Godin: I’m gonna take two.

Sonia Simone: That would be awesome.

Seth Godin: The two are: One, this is a revolution. We’re standing on the precipice of it, and we’re likely to waste it if we just keep doing what we’re doing.

Two, in order to move forward, we have to own our words. We don’t get to say, “Well, I was just parroting the company line.” Or “Well, that’s what my party needed me to do.” Or “It’ll all work out.”

It’s on us, that our name is on it. It wasn’t true when you were the 800th highest-ranking person at Ford Motor Company. But that’s not the case anymore, that there’s so much leverage for every individual. We need to own it.

If you knew you had to own it, what would you do? That’s what I would like people to understand.

Sonia Simone: That is really cool. That’s very interesting.

All right. Well, I will end with the thing we always end with. Which is, let’s say somebody finds this. Not that we’ve been obsessively focused on the seminar, which actually sounds like a really cool project.

But let’s say somebody finds this interview in six months. Seminar’s not an issue anymore. Do you have some little piece, like a small evergreen question or a small evergreen touchstone, that people might take away with them on their day and maybe do something different with their day?

Seth Godin: Would they miss you if you were gone? If your email didn’t show up, if your memo didn’t arrive, if your meeting was canceled, if you couldn’t offer your service and they had to buy it from a competitor — would they miss you?

Sonia Simone: Oh, I love it. Wonderful.

Thank you so much. This is been such a delight. I really enjoy the way you think, and I really enjoy the way you teach. And I’m excited about your project.

Thank you. This had just been a delight.

Seth Godin: I hope we can do it again soon, Sonia. I miss talking to you, and I wish you a ‘buona sera.’

Sonia Simone: Ah, grazie. Grazie mille.

Seth Godin: Very good. See you later.

Sonia Simone: See ya.

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