The co-author of The Art of SEO (and one of the leading SEO and content marketing experts in the world) drops by today to share his LinkedIn insights.
Over the years I have become a huge fan of Eric Enge and the team at Stone Temple Consulting. They are smart, easy going and always willing to help others.
But what has really set Eric and his team apart is the amount of experimenting and research they do … sorting fact from fiction in the field of SEO and content marketing.
I was fortunate to get the chance to interview Eric at Pubcon Austin and discuss his thoughts on using LinkedIn for content marketing.
As Eric points out in this interview, you may be “renting” your audience on LinkedIn, but if you follow his advice, you may be able to “rent to own.”
In this episode Eric and I discuss:
- The smart way to publish content on LinkedIn Pulse
- Why groups are the best way to build relationships
- Are LinkedIn ads worth the effort?
- Why you should be marketing on LinkedIn now
- …and the nuances of ‘nĭch versus nēsh’
The Show Notes
Eric Enge on the Art of LinkedIn Marketing
Voiceover: This is The Missing Link with your host, the insufferable, but never boring, Sean Jackson.
Sean Jackson: Hello everyone. It’s Sean Jackson and I am joined as always by the cheerful Mica Gadhia. Mica, how are you?
Mica Gadhia: Sean, I’m excellent today. How are you doing?
Sean Jackson: To be fair, I’m on drugs right now.
Mica Gadhia: Okay. That explains a lot Sean.
Sean Jackson: Not that type of drugs Mica! I’m feeling under the weather so I took some medicine this morning, and I’m feeling a little fuzzy right now. If anyone complains about the podcast, you’re going to realize — “Well, Sean’s on drugs.” The good news is I actually have a special treat for everyone because we have my good friend, great thought leader, overall generally awesome guy, Eric Enge from Stone Temple.
Mica Gadhia: Yay!
Sean Jackson: Yeah, I know! The good news is I wasn’t on drugs when I was interviewing him because I was at Pubcom in Austin. I had my recorder with me and I knew I wanted to get Eric in person on a recording device so we could share it with our audience. Now for those of you that don’t know who Eric Enge is, trust me he is literally — I want to call him like the professor of content marketing. He’s so smart. But he’s smart not just on the theory standpoint, he actually uses all of these — much like Copyblogger does — to promote his own business.
He’s also doing, beyond that, the research out there. If you’ve heard of Stone Temple it may be because of all the research reports out there. I am just hugely excited that he’s here. That we were able to get him actually to record the show. I think it’s going to be one of our best interviews today simply because of the amount of awesome insight Eric had.
Mica Gadhia: That’s exciting!
Sean Jackson: Always. And of course, if you’ve been listening to the show you know what I’m about to say next. I want you to pull out your phone and send a text message to 41411, with the keyword MYLINK — no spaces. Don’t let it autocorrect for you. If you’re international, outside the US, just send an email to email@example.com. Now why should you do that? Because when you subscribe to 41411 with the keyword MYLINK, we are going to send you a link directly to a private LinkedIn discussion group. And Mica, what is in that discussion group?
Mica Gadhia: A lot of information that you can use right now to use for your LinkedIn promotion, your LinkedIn profile, your LinkedIn … We’re even putting some information about the images that you can put in, or how to write headlines for the posts that are on LinkedIn. So everything in addition to what we’re doing in the podcast. You can get other resources that will benefit your LinkedIn journey.
Sean Jackson: It’s almost like free consulting, isn’t it Mica? Almost like here’s everything you need to be successful in marketing on LinkedIn in one private place.
Mica Gadhia: Yeah. I’ve seen some of your answers Sean and they are thorough and in-depth. I invite all of the listeners who are already in there to ask any questions you can. It’s all going to help everybody in the community.
Sean Jackson: Everyone take a moment to go ahead and do that. When we come back from the break, we are going to have an awesome interview with my good friend, thought leader, entrepreneur extraordinaire, Eric Enge. Right after this.
Mica Gadhia: Podcasting is a great way to build your online authority, but the key to success is to publish online. The rainmaker platform makes that easy. Rainmaker is a complete online marketing solution that makes it easy and simple to execute your online marketing strategy. Whether you need a design, landing page, or a simple way to publish your own podcast, rainmaker is the solution for you. Head on over to Rainmaker.FM/platform right now and sign up for your free, 14-day trial. Because this is the same tool that we use to publish The Missing Link, and if Sean and I can use it, then so can you.
Sean Jackson: If you don’t know who Eric is, you’re on a freaking other planet. Eric has been in this community for quite some time. His marketing is beyond compare, and this guy knows his stuff. Without further ado, my good friend and brilliant thought leader on our space, Mr. Eric Enge. Eric, thank you for being on the show.
Eric Enge: Thank you. I’m going to try to come somewhere near living up to the way you’ve introduced me. Probably my challenge for the show.
Sean Jackson: Quite frankly you’re all over the place, and so I figured you must know something. I see you all over, between your videos, and the blog posts, and everything else. You may not know what you’re talking about, but boy it seems like you do.
Eric Enge: I’m talking about it a lot.
Sean Jackson: You’re talking about it a lot. Exactly. So Eric, go ahead and bring our listeners a little bit up on your background. Certainly I know it, but what is it that made you kind of get into the space, and what is Stone Temple out there to be doing.
Eric Enge: I’ve been an engineer by background for the longest time. Somewhere along the way, I learned that I had the ability to talk and explain things. That very quickly got me into careers really comparable to SEO. My early days — helping run businesses and sell technology things — fit really well with SEO. Because you’re constantly explaining things, and you’re having to help people understand difficult technical concepts — businesspeople, C-suite people — trying to get them understand difficult, technical concepts.
If you’re the kind of person that can help them understand, to simplify it so they can take action on it, then you’re in a good spot to be in the SEO industry. That’s how I got here. Stone Temple Consulting is a digital marketing agency — content marketing SEO, social media. We help people get more traffic and more business from that traffic on their websites.
Sean Jackson: I would highly recommend, if you have not read, “The Art of SEO.” Quite frankly, before I ever met you in person (which was at Pubcon by the way, in Vegas) I totally remember getting that book. I was thrilled to death to read it. Then when I got a chance to meet you, I was like, “Oh my God, now I can get all the behind the scenes stuff.” It turns out you put everything in the book.
Eric Enge: There you go, that’s all you need.
Sean Jackson: That’s all you need.
Eric Enge: Third edition comes out in July.
Sean Jackson: Fantastic! Absolutely highly recommended. Anyone who’s listening, buy “The Art of SEO” third edition, out in July. Now I want to get into the nuts of this because, quite frankly, let me tell you what I’ve been hearing. I ask people, “What do you think about LinkedIn? Is LinkedIn good for this? Is LinkedIn better for that, etc?” I’m going to tell you quite frankly Eric, I’m hearing a lot more negative sometimes than I am positive about LinkedIn.
Sure, it’s known as the job board. It’s the fancy job board. That’s what everybody thinks. But yet, if you look at the numbers, how many more people are on LinkedIn than Twitter? Yet Twitter gets all the play. LinkedIn is, by all the metrics, still bigger than Twitter, and yet it gets nothing of the attention. I think in the online marketing space we’re starting to notice. We’ve always known about it, but we’re noticing it. And you’re doing some things on there, so I want to talk to you what is it that you’re doing, what is your thinking behind it, why are you doing it? Give us a little bit of background to why you’re spending your very valuable time on LinkedIn.
Eric Enge: Sure. To be fair, as I told you before, we’re in the early stages, but I’m going to tell you what we see in it and why I think it’s really important. First of all, you have the other social networks. You have Facebook, which of course they’ve taken away so much of that organic visibility from brands that Copyblogger dropped it. Very interesting, and great move for you guys.
Not that you can’t do things with Facebook, you can. But then you have Twitter, which is the sound bite capital of the world, if you will. It’s 140 characters, of course make it 120 so someone might be able to Retweet it. It keeps getting shorter and shorter. You can do some useful things on Twitter, but it’s a little bit watered down too.
Then the next thing that you’re going to do is think about, “Can I do better by jumping in on some niche (I prefer the French style pronunciation) social networks?” LinkedIn is big in terms of total volume, but if you look at it as it’s used as a social media site, it’s actually a niche network. Our early experiments make me think that it works really well as a B2B environment where I can get to decision-makers with less noise around that communication than I can on the other social networks.
Sean Jackson: Let’s talk about experiments. If there anything that Stone Temple is known for, is the amount of pure research — statistical data research — that you do across a number of mediums, both in SEO and content marketing, etc. Before we get in the results, let’s talk about the things that you guys are experimenting with right now.
Eric Enge: Sure. You mean on LinkedIn specifically?
Sean Jackson: On LinkedIn, yes.
Eric Enge: Yeah.
Sean Jackson: I would hope so. That’s what the show is about, Eric.
The Smart Way to Publish Content on LinkedIn Pulse
Eric Enge: Well, we have our studies that we do. There are three areas that we’ve experimented with. One is LinkedIn publisher. That actually works pretty well and it’s a good way to build an organic following. But as you talked about, some people get into this stuff and they get discouraged in trying to do something with LinkedIn.
It’s a long effort. Don’t go in and think that overnight, you’re going to have this great success on LinkedIn. You have an opportunity on LinkedIn to build a powerful, focused, organic following. Through LinkedIn publisher is one method, which means writing full blog-post sized posts on LinkedIn. 500-word, 700-word, 1200-word posts, half a dozen images — just like you would on anything in your own blog. If you’re lucky, then Spotlight, where they actually start showing it to broader audiences —
Sean Jackson: Right, part of the Pulse network. They get it get out there.
Eric Enge: If you publish on a regular basis and you publish good content, you pretty much — after maybe a dozen or so articles — can start to get in there every time and you get broader distribution. What does that mean? What that means is that based on the channels that they find within LinkedIn, you’re getting exposure to focused, higher-level audiences that are interested in your content. You’re getting in front of new eyeballs. You’re doing that in a way that’s different than really any of the other mechanisms.
Sean Jackson: Let’s go into the publisher feature because I think there is a lot of unique things about that. I noticed that you and Mark Traphagen do a lot in there. I’ve seen some experiments. The question comes up all the time: “Can I take an existing blog post that has been out there and put it into the publisher feed? And if so, what are the benefits? If not, why not?”
Eric Enge: Technically speaking, you can. I’m not a fan.
Sean Jackson: Okay. Why?
Eric Enge: Because to me it’s like anytime you have an opportunity to get in front of an audience –I don’t care what that audience is — if you don’t tailor what you’re doing to that audience, it’s just a mistake. First of all, repurposing is great. I’m not saying don’t repurpose. But if you’re going to take that post verbatim and drop it in there, it is going to come back on you at some point.
It’s just my opinion. I know other people who are doing it. LinkedIn doesn’t technically prevent you from doing it, although I think their terms of service discourage it. I just don’t like to do it, but physically you can do it, and it works.
Sean Jackson: What about the strategy of taking an existing post and cutting it up, so that to read the rest of the post or to get further information — it’s call to action if you will. There’s a componentized, summarized, or even an actual two-thirds of the remaining third — the real meat of it — back on your site. What about that as a strategy?
Eric Enge: Absolutely. You can do something like that. I’d still like to somewhat customize that.
Sean Jackson: Tailor it to the vehicle.
Eric Enge: Right. I think you get a stronger response from my experience with publisher when you put a full-on post in there.
Sean Jackson: Got you.
Eric Enge: Not that you can’t use it to drive traffic the way you just described, Sean, to your post by other means. Because you can do that. But from my perspective you’re going to get a lot better spread within the LinkedIn publisher system if it’s fresh, original content. That’s been borne out from our experiments with it so far. Look, we all know any social media network is a rented audience. But it’s a rent-to-own world.
Sean Jackson: Love that, rent-to-own.
Eric Enge: Use those rented audiences as a way to capture and build your own audience. That’s what you have to have in your mind wherever you are. You’re on Facebook. You’re on Google+. You’re on Twitter. You’re writing a guest post column for somebody. Speaking at a conference. Those are all borrowed audiences and they’re all about building your audience. Always back to your audience.
Sean Jackson: What else besides publisher are you guys looking at or thinking about experimenting with?
Why Groups are the Best Way to Build Relationships
Eric Enge: Something I know that you guys do quite well is groups. And pulling together a group — very powerful — because once you start building your own group you have the ability to communicate with that group on a regular basis. It’s a semi-rented audience because it’s your group on LinkedIn — you’re running that thing and you have the opportunity.
As always when you do these things though, you have to be very mindful of, “Okay, I’ve got this group. What am I doing to make sure that this particular rented audience is not engaging with me only here but they’re coming through and seeing things?” There are lots of payoffs to this. It’s important to understand how many levels of interaction there are here.
You might have someone you first meet on the LinkedIn group. Then they see you speak at a conference. Then they see an article you published somewhere else. It’s only after all three of those things happen before they’re ready to become a customer or just simply Retweet your article — I went to a fourth platform now. This is the way the world works.
Sean Jackson: Sure, sure. And I think there’s a lot to the LinkedIn discussion groups. That has probably been my personal favorite out of all LinkedIn because of that email capability. We know that open rates on LinkedIn emails are much higher because it’s coming from LinkedIn, not from you. The discussion group allows you to send them out there.
Eric Enge: But let’s expand on that a second. I want your listeners to be clear about what you just said. It is both the LinkedIn claim and a fact that a LinkedIn InMail, as they call it, has a higher open rate than a regular email. That’s even true if it’s unsolicited. LinkedIn does have a feature where you can pay to send a small number — they won’t give you a large number, I think it’s 10, 20, 50 are the numbers of unsolicited InMails per month.
If you have somebody that you’ve really got to reach like a power influencer or a media person, a potential buyer, large customer, and you can be very thoughtful about the way you do it, your chances of getting that unsolicited communication open is far greater than if you do it by email. That’s a hidden little gem in LinkedIn that a few people are getting. Again, LinkedIn doesn’t allow you to do it to hundreds of people a month. They don’t. You do have to pay for that privilege. But we do use that on a selective basis and it’s true. They get read.
Sean Jackson: What I’m speaking of is in the discussion group. There is a broadcast feature in there. Again, you’re right about context, because if you start spamming people — they’re hitting a discussion group every four days — they’re going to stay around. They are certainly not going to open it.
The rules of engaged marketing, personalized marketing is certainly applicable. But in a broad sense — the limit of the one-to-one, if you will, versus the one to many that you get from discussion — that’s the only way in LinkedIn you can broadcast to more than 50 people at a time. Even your own email to your own contacts is limited to 50 people at a time.
Let’s talk about some other things that you’re looking at or potentially experimenting on. So we’re talking about publisher. We talked a little bit about groups. What are some of the other things you’re seeing that you like to play around with?
Are LinkedIn Ads Worth the Effort?
Eric Enge: Done experimentation with the ads.
Sean Jackson: And?
Eric Enge: Not wowed by the ads.
Sean Jackson: I’ve heard that a lot. Why? I want to know why you’re not … Too expensive, not targeted enough, no reach?
Eric Enge: Expensive is definitely one of them. Compared to what I can do with Facebook ads, Twitter ads, YouTube ads — all cheaper. It’s not like LinkedIn gives me fundamentally superior targeting in return for that. We’ve done some tests. I can’t say we spent millions of dollars, but we spent tens of thousands across different platforms. I get much lower cost per effective action, which might be as simple as I just want someone to come see my post.
Sean Jackson: Right. You get a lower cost in other networks, not LinkedIn. LinkedIn is a very high cost but for the action.
Eric Enge: Didn’t get any data out of all this to convince me that they were higher-quality actions. Not been wowed by that part of it.
Sean Jackson: By the ad portion. What about the sponsored updates ability or sponsoring content up? You guys thinking about that at all?
Eric Enge: I’m including that in what we’ve tested. We’re continuing to experiment with it. I have to believe that LinkedIn is going to get better at this because I don’t think that we’re the only ones who are thinking this. We’d spend some more money on it, given everything else I’ve said about LinkedIn, if I could use that process of spending money there to grow that audience on the platform. I’d put some money into that.
Sean Jackson: Sure. I think that’s a tough part because it’s expensive. That’s what I hear routinely from marketers: it’s very expensive. The idea being that I’m paying more for higher targeted quality traffic. As you indicated from your test so far that hasn’t been there. There’s a much higher cost per action to get them to engage through, and certainly you’re right. There’s probably ways they can fix that thing.
Are you listening LinkedIn? Fix it, dammit! That’s what this show is about. We also want LinkedIn to listen and do some new things because I do think there are other ways they can make it better for online marketers that their marketers would be willing to pay for, no question about it. What are some of the other things that may be interesting that they’re working on that as an online marketer you’ll keep on the radar screen?
Eric Enge: I do want to go back to another aspect of groups for a second.
Sean Jackson: Sure.
Why You Should Be Marketing on LinkedIn Now
Eric Enge: Because I think we talked about in the context of being a group owner but you don’t have to be the group owner to get value out of groups. One thing you can do is just participate in groups. Can be very useful, particularly if you get known as an active participant. That can really help you, because if you start building those relationships within the group just as a participant and you’re doing stuff on publisher, then you can get in the spot people are promoting your stuff in the group which increases the chances that it will get actually put in spotlight by LinkedIn.
Sean Jackson: Nice. Let me just recap what you said. Basically by participating in other groups that are aligned with the interest area and then maybe putting valuable content from the things that you put on publisher into those groups, it’s a symbiotic relationship, if you will, between keeping them in the ecosystem and again building that authority and that rapport.
Eric Enge: Driving likes and comments and views to that post, which is what helps it spread.
Sean Jackson: Absolutely. It’s funny because I do notice that topics that are LinkedIn specific — business for instance always will do well in LinkedIn. If I talk about cats, God, Facebook — I’m sure it’s going to be out on the roof. What are some of the other things? Is LinkedIn just a B2B network in your opinion?
In other words, I know of a story where a hotel brand targeted salespeople. So a consumer-oriented play, highly focused on traveling salespeople to make them offers. I think the ads have to be very creative and very understanding of who the hell is there. But I also wonder, is it just B2B? I mean at the end of the day, this is just about a business selling to another business? Is that really LinkedIn’s role?
Eric Enge: I’ve not done any experimentation on that one. It’s a good question as to how that can work. I would bet in the right scenarios it can work, but I don’t have any really good data.
Sean Jackson: Yeah, and I think it’s going to be tough. Because let’s say I’m a high-end brand of some sort — Rolex. The beauty of LinkedIn is that there are people that have money on there because they have jobs. Do you envision a day where that’s possible? I’m not saying they’re doing it now. But is it conceivable that it migrates more to B2C over time or is it really just going to be primarily in that B2B space?
Eric Enge: There are a lot of people on LinkedIn.
Sean Jackson: Over 330 million.
Eric Enge: 330 million people. That is 330 million consumers. They might be CEOs. They might be administrative assistants — that whole spectrum. They all have jobs, so to speak, or looking for them. That’s fine. But they are all consumers. There’s got to be a way to leverage that. But even the example you gave of the hotel chain targeting traveling salespeople, again, that was a very specific professional focus. I think probably the easiest way to leverage it right now is to understand those verticals.
…And the Nuances of ‘Nĭch Versus Nēsh’
Sean Jackson: Plus knowing that the cost is so high. I think that’s the point. You’re not going to try to sell them a $10 widget. You’re going to have to sell a premium to justify the high cost which you have said, and lots of marketers said: “I want to do more LinkedIn, but dammit the costs are just so damn high for the individual that I’m getting compared to other channels where I’d be spending my dollar. ”
I can totally see that. I appreciate that because again, would you say overall, that LinkedIn is emerging on the online marketing radar screen? I mean it’s been around forever for God knows, but do you think it’s emerging? Do you think more people are paying attention to it or is it still just going to be niche, to use your French terminology, of this thing?
Eric Enge: We’ll call it niche if that makes it more comfortable. I think the use of the word niche is a niche thing in my experience.
Sean Jackson: Oh, very clever.
Eric Enge: But in any case, I think their journey in this is just beginning. They’ve taken some clear steps to try and open up themselves as a broader social media network. They’ve got 330 million warm bodies. There’s a lot of hay you can make with that. They’re probably working quite hard to figure out what steps to take forward on that.
Their journey — they have to be very careful about it, because they can’t lose their core of what they’re about in the process. They could water themselves down and say, “Okay, let’s try to be another Facebook.” And then you’d leave them too. They could do that. If they lose their differentiation, then they’ll lose their way completely.
From what I see, and I don’t have inside information on this, but it seems to me like they’re being very careful about that. It does seem like they keep taking these steps. I really think you’re going to see more of that. Like every other public company they’ve got to show a growth path, 330 million that’s nice. When we get into half — that’s all anybody wants to know. That’s what the investors want to know. How are you going to up your revenue per person?
Sean Jackson: You do think there’s more emergence onto LinkedIn, we’re going to be talking more. It’s been where, if you’re going to be experimenting, it’s a damn good place to start experimenting.
Eric Enge: It is. When you have a (sorry, I’m going back to my way of saying it) niche play like this — just like Instagram, you can make a similar argument for Instagram. There are really specific opportunities that are there for people who get in there before it gets crowded. It’s odd to say that about LinkedIn as old as it is, but from this perspective, it’s relatively new.
If you really build a marketing presence there, then you can be a real leader in that space. I know people who have built careers on social media sites by getting in early. I’ll give you two names. On Instagram, the immediate name is Sue Zimmerman whose “Instagal” has built a whole reputation industry-wide, just from doing Instagram. Stone Temple’s very own Mark Traphagen at Google+ — made a career for himself at Google+. The network that everybody says is dying tomorrow and isn’t going to die anytime soon.
You can take these things. It doesn’t have to be the biggest marketplace in the world. It just needs to be: you’re the best one on that marketplace. You’ve got yourself a very nice situation. I really think there are strong opportunities for people who want to do that for themselves on LinkedIn. It’s going to be a hell of a lot easier to do it on LinkedIn than it is going to be the jump into the Twitter quagmire. Because whatever market you’re in, it’s crowded in Twitter. Guaranteed. It’s not even necessarily that much bigger.
Sean Jackson: It’s not bigger, it’s actually smaller. Twitter has less users than —
Eric Enge: But it’s bigger in terms of being used for this purpose. So there’s a really good opportunity for businesses and individuals of all kinds to make a reputation. Whether it’s right for your business or not — little bit of detail for answering that question.
Sean Jackson: Eric, thank you so much. Really truly appreciate your time on this. As always, highly recommend everyone pick up “The Art of SEO.” Absolutely check out Stone Temple’s website. They always have great marketing information on there. Eric, thank you again.
Mica Gadhia: All right. Thank you Sean.
Sean Jackson: Every time I talk to Eric, I feel like I’m going to Stone Temple University to hear from the very famous Professor Eric. Doesn’t he sound like a professor? Like the cool professor you always wanted in college.
Mica Gadhia: He does. The one that will answer every question perfectly every time. You can walk away and just go do what you want to do.
Sean Jackson: He is so nice, and genuine, and super smart. He’s smart because he’s a scientist and he talks to you like a peer even though he is so much smarter than I am about this stuff. Mica, what did you learn from Professor Eric there?
Mica Gadhia: Mr. Engineer, ‘knows all the things,’ Eric. I got three things from that. Excellent interview, by the way. The first one is it sounds like you have to get into LinkedIn now. It has more users than Twitter and it’s one of those markets where it sounds like you just need to get in there now and start doing your magic. Start doing your publishing and your profile and all the other things that we’re talking about.
Second thing it sounds like — I like that you have to publish, but I love the way that you need to tailor it to your specific audience. So tailoring your post and your publish to your audience makes perfect sense to me, especially on LinkedIn. Finally, the huge power of groups which we know about already with our Missing Link group. We have a lot of discussions going on. We’re adding promotions in there, people are getting engaged, and they’re getting information that’s helping them on their LinkedIn journey.
Sean Jackson: Absolutely. I think the groups is so important that we have in our next show Jabez LaBret, one of the true pioneers and experts in using LinkedIn groups to grow your business. He’s going to be our guest on the next one. And, as Mica indicated, we have this awesome, amazing, private LinkedIn discussion group where we give you tips, tactics, ideas, articles — everything that you need including free advice and consulting about LinkedIn, on LinkedIn. But the only way you can do that is by what Mica?
Mica Gadhia: You pull out your phone, you dial 41411, and then you’ll put in the word MYLINK (with no space in there — It will try to auto correct). And then you will be sent to our Missing Link group where you will find a list of promotions, you’ll find fabulous discussions, what people are really talking about, the specifics of LinkedIn, how to do it better, how to do things differently, and what the results are.
Sean Jackson: If you’re international — outside of United States — just send an email to firstname.lastname@example.org. I cannot thank Mr. Eric Enge enough from Stone Temple Consulting. It was a fantastic interview.
Mica Gadhia: Thank you Eric Enge.
Sean Jackson: Everybody, have a great week. We’ll talk to you next week.
Mica Gadhia: Bye.
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