How to Become a Digital Media Showrunner

The Transcript

How to Become a Digital Media Showrunner

Robert Bruce: This is New Rainmaker with Brian Clark, but with Robert Bruce and Jerod Morris. What happened? We stole Brian’s show, Jerod.

Jerod Morris: We did. I’m just excited to be the latest cog in the Copyblogger employee-generated content machine man.

Robert Bruce: Did you hear that? Did you hear my outburst?

Jerod Morris: I did. I get why that’s a good term. I liked your description of why it’s not good.

Robert Bruce: I don’t know what’s wrong with me. Sometimes it gets to me. I shouldn’t say those things out loud, but there you have it.

Jerod Morris: No, you should. You love people, Robert, and that comes across, and that you respect the human condition.

Robert Bruce: Yes. And art in general.

Jerod Morris: Yes.

Robert Bruce: What are we going to do with this show today? We have Brian’s show hostage? We can do anything we want. We can burn it to the ground. We can create something great out of it. What are we going to do here? Brian’s in San Diego giving a speech. He’s out of town. He can do nothing about the content of this episode.

Jerod Morris: We could toss Fight Club and Big Lebowski quotes back and forth, so he listens to it.

Robert Bruce: That’s the problem. See? Then he’ll like that. It might be an opportunity to just completely … Anyway. I’m sure those will be in there anyway.

OK. Jerod Morris, VP of Rainmaker.FM. You have had some changes in your job description and in your daily professional life occur in the last few weeks. You want to talk about any of that? Some interesting stuff going on for you.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. After spending a couple of years over there on the Copyblogger blog side, I’ve come over to the Rainmaker side, which is bittersweet in a sense because I’m not getting to work quite as closely with Demian and Stefanie and the people I was working with there. There’s always a little sadness there, but I’m excited about the new opportunity. I think I wrote in an email recently that it’s exciting to work for a company where you can leave a position that you love so much and still be even more excited about what you get to do next. Obviously, I love podcasting and audio and everything about the platform. I’m excited to be able to spend more time over here working on it.

Robert Bruce: Yeah. The good news for Copyblogger and the Copyblogger audience is Pamela Wilson is taking over, over there under Sonia Simone and with Stefanie Flaxman and Demian Farnworth. Could you say that maybe that’s even a better deal for the Copyblogger audience?

Jerod Morris: Without question. That’s one thing that makes it a good move to make. As you look back and you say, “Oh, yeah, that place is going to be an even better shape now.” She’s going to do the job 200% better. It’s good. It’s better for all.

Robert Bruce: In all fairness, I felt the same way when I handed you the keys over there. Yeah, I think it’s a good deal. I’m certainly very pleased that you’re coming to Rainmaker.FM and the Rainmaker Platform. It’s going to be an interesting year, my friend.

Jerod Morris: It is.

Robert Bruce: We’ll see what’s in store. On that note, you and Brian have been wrestling with a concept that is going to be the topic of this episode of New Rainmaker. It’s interesting because it has roots in what has come to be known as ‘old media.’ This idea of the person, specifically television, the person that puts it all together is the creative force and the visionary force behind a particular show. Let’s just talk generally about this concept first.

What a Showrunner Is and Does

Jerod Morris: Like Brian said on the last episode of New Rainmaker, it was really inspired by television. It’s really a television reference, this idea of a showrunner. I don’t recall really being that familiar with it before just a few years ago when Breaking Bad got huge.

Robert Bruce: Yeah, I think of the same thing.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. And Vince Gilligan, obviously, was the showrunner. I was, and still am, a huge fan of that show. That’s where I really first became familiar with the term. You got Matt Weiner on Mad Men and a lot of these other ones that, like you said, they’re really the driving force and the visionary, the person that executes and makes it all happen. I think for any type of show or media property like this — like what we’re producing with Rainmaker.FM — having that one person, the showrunner, obviously, it’s worked out great. You think of some of the best television shows ever in history, and they’ve got specific people behind them that you associate with them. I think there’s a reason for that.

Robert Bruce: Yeah. I think the first time I became aware of this word was when Dan Harmon, I think, was he fired from Parks and Rec, or am I getting all of this wrong?

Jerod Morris: It was from Community.

Robert Bruce: Community. Right. It kind of bubbled up this idea of the showrunner, bubbled up into the popular culture and more into the mainstream. I don’t know if it’s a new term necessarily or it’s been around for decades, but I like this concept. You’re coming out with a new show, and in fact, it’s already out by the time this airs.

Jerod Morris: Yes.

Robert Bruce: It’s called the Showrunner. I want to know why you decided to name it that.

Jerod Morris: I like the idea of what we just talked about, of that person executing their vision for this content property because I think it’s a very empowering term. First off, I liked it because of the Breaking Bad reference because, frankly, when I think showrunner, I think Breaking Bad. So any time I get to associate something with that, I like to do it. More than that, really, I knew I wanted to do a show about podcasting and try and transfer some of the lessons that I’ve learned about podcasting to others and, also, just have a vehicle to go learn more.

So I knew I wanted to do that kind of show, but I wanted the idea of it to be something that really empowered people, if they have something they want to say and a reason to say it, to really get out there, have the tools and the motivation to do it. That idea of a showrunner is really empowering in that sense because you realize you can take this and stir it in whatever direction you want as long as it’s audience-focused. I think the best TV shows have done that. I think the best podcasts do that. All of that gets encompassed in that term. That’s why it just seemed to fit so perfectly.

Robert Bruce: Yeah. I don’t, and I know you don’t want, this to be a big ad for your new podcast, but this is a really cool concept. It goes to the heart of everything we talk about all the time, this idea of becoming the producer of your own media, building your own media asset, building your own audience over time. I think that’s what’s going to be so cool about your show. You shot the first episode to me and a few other people, and it’s really, really good by the way.

Jerod Morris: Thank you.

Robert Bruce: This is a really important concept to grasp. I like the hook that the word ‘showrunner’ gives to it because it really does make it a shortcut to this concept of building your own media asset. It’s a podcast about podcasting, right?

Jerod Morris: Mm-hmm.

Robert Bruce: We’ve had these discussions over and over again, but tell me why you think we’re betting so big on audio content specifically now.

Jerod Morris: I think there’s really two reasons. Number one is simply looking at what’s already happened, looking at the boom in podcast listenership and subscriptions. You guys have read the stats off a couple times already on New Rainmaker. I list them in the first episode of Showrunner, so we don’t need to get into those. But people know. There’s a billion downloads on iTunes. People are listening.

The thing is when you look into the future, you look at every social and cultural and technological trend, and it really does seem to suggest that this on-demand audio content is, not just the present, but really the future of content consumption because it fits in to so much of what we desire individually, which is content on-demand and content that is convenient — basically, education or entertainment, depending on our mood or our goals, when we want it, where we want it. There’s no better way to get that than with audio content.

Back when Copyblogger started, text was really the way to go. Because even back then, there were podcasts, but the audience wasn’t necessarily ready for it. We’ve had this convergence of there’s more content, there’s a receptive audience. That’s just going to continue to grow, which is what makes right now really a good time to get into it because it’s not so saturated that your voice can’t be heard. But the audience is growing so much that, depending on what audience you choose, there’s a really great opportunity to get out there and start building an audience, or furthering your audience with audio content.

Robert Bruce: Yeah. I think we and others have made the case that audio is an extremely legitimate and powerful way to reach the audience that you’re looking to reach. Again, this idea of a showrunner is a great metaphor to wrap your head around — what you’re doing when you create a new show that the sole purpose of which is to power your business.

We’ve talked Rainmaker.FM as a network, as a whole that, first and foremost, we want to please, delight, entertain, instruct our audience. We want to give them all of that as much as we’re able. It’s not perfect all the time by any means. There’s that piece. We want to grow that audience. It freaks people out sometimes. Even now, even after everything that we and others have done with things like Copyblogger and content marketing in general, that a couple of conversations I’ve had is that the whole purpose of this network is to build the audience in order to build our business, which, content marketing 101. And that’s an indirect way of giving people what they want, and then giving people what they want on the free side and on the pay side.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. The other thing, too, is with the reasons for why podcasting is growing, and on-demand audio content, and why we’re betting on it is because our company has basically been built on building connections with an audience. There is a next level of connection that you can build through an audio podcast that you just can’t with text.

Text is great, but there is a larger length between the content creator and the person consuming it. If I’m listening to your podcast and you’re right there in my ears, again, it’s like you’re sitting next to me on my drive to work or strolling with me when I’m walking my dog. There’s that connection that is really big. Obviously, that’s big when it comes to building an audience.

Like Michael Hyatt said on a previous episode of New Rainmaker actually, when you start talking about for business and for sales even, building that ‘know, like, and trust’ factor is so important. Even just looking at podcasts from that standpoint because it allows for deeper connection and allows for even more of that ‘know, like and trust,’ it can really help you with those goals as well. It’s just a very holistic content medium for any type of content marketing strategy.

Robert Bruce: Let’s say we’re speaking to somebody who’s bought in. They see what so many businesses and individuals are doing with audio, with podcasting. They see what we’re doing, and they say, “OK, I get it. I think that looking around at my own audience is something I need to do or it’s just something I really want to do.” There’s a lot of passionate audiophiles out there. Old school radio fans, which I certainly am — I know you are — that want to be a part of this and part of the future of audio content. Give me a short list. What are the basic elements of a good showrunner?

The Four Elements of Being a Good Showrunner

Jerod Morris: There are really four that stand out to me. Number one is being audience-focused. That’s the most important thing. I really think that as people look at what topic they want to run their show about, there’s really two different ways to look at it. You can look at what you’re excited about and interested in creating content about, but then there’s also the element of how can you really impact an audience with it. I was explaining this to someone the other day. I could do a podcast about Fantasy Football because it’s interesting to me and I would like talking about it, but I don’t really care if your Fantasy Football team does better on Sunday because of my advice.

Similarly, I love podcasting. I love talking about it. It’s very interesting, but I do care if you launch a podcast because of something I said or your podcast gets better because of something I said. I think choosing a topic where you have that extra layer of audience focus and care is very important. I think the best showrunners come from a place of that audience focus. I also think there’s a commitment to quality, both just in terms of audio quality and the presentation. That is very important because, when that quality is not there, it puts up a barrier between the content consumer and the content creator that doesn’t allow you to maximize the connection that makes podcasts so powerful.

Perseverance is obviously very important because, as you well know, when you’re doing a show, there are going to be some tough times in there. And you’ve got to keep going because that’s how you get better and that’s how you develop the fourth element, which is authenticity. Ultimately, that’s what takes a showrunner from just someone who has a podcast to a showrunner who’s connecting with an audience, is the ability to be truly authentic behind the mic to the point where whoever is listening really thinks that you’re just there talking to them. That’s where you really develop that connection.

Wrapped up in those is consistency and reliability, which is important because you’ve got to show up as expected, and people have to know they can count on you. Really, to me, when I look at it, if you have those four things, then you’re really going to succeed in the long term as a showrunner.

Robert Bruce: What do you think the deal is with consistency? We all know that it is utterly important, and I could argue that it may be even the most important thing even above ‘you’ve got to have a plan, you’ve got to be getting better at what you’re doing,’ of course. But consistency sometimes directs both of those things. What do you think about consistency in general in terms of how important is it to building an audience and then, of course, building a business? Certainly as related to podcasting, what we’re talking here, but even just generally?

Jerod Morris: It’s essential. Frankly, that was a frustrating realization for me as a showrunner because I am not someone who has always functioned well with a set schedule. But I realized that part of the reason for that is the content creation was coming from a more selfish place, because I think really what separates your ability to be consistent is when you’re there and you know people are counting on you and you’re focused on them, then you’re going to show up at the time they expect you to. If it’s just more based on you and ‘when I want to talk about this and my schedule now,’ you almost fight the consistency. I’ve done that with shows, and those shows have not caught on. The shows that are consistent and people know where to find you and when, they catch on.

I don’t think anybody would say, “I don’t trust him because he doesn’t show up consistently, or he missed this episode.” I think there’s a subconscious element there that can put a barrier up between that know, like, and trust that you’re trying to develop. Again, it took me a while to realize that. I had to really fail on some other shows not doing that to see it. I have come kicking and screaming, but realizing that, it’s essential. I really believe it.

Robert Bruce: The older I get, the longer I do this stuff, the more that I see online and the stories that I read about people doing their own thing and in various disciplines and in various markets, I don’t know, man, I think consistency is the thing.

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Robert Bruce: It’s so general. It’s so broad. You can write it off as whatever. That’s great advice. Give me the nitty-gritty. Give me the tactics. Give me the strategies, which are also very important, but it just keeps coming back to this word ‘consistency’ for me.

Jerod Morris: It does. People need to know what to expect from you.

Robert Bruce: What did you say in one of your shows, four years, I think, you’ve been working on it, and just now it’s starting to catch on. You had talked about the idea of every year, at the end of every season, you were like, “OK, guys, this is it. I want to quit. Maybe we should wrap this thing up.”

Jerod Morris: Yeah. The site is AssemblyCall.com. It’s basically a postgame show for IU basketball games. A couple of guys and I who had worked on another site together started on a whim four years ago with just this idea of, “Hey, it’d be nice if after the games, there’s a place to go hang out online and talk about it and break down the game.” We just started it with no idea for what the schedule would be like. There’s a built-in consistency that’s required there because you basically have to show up after every postgame show.

We realized pretty early on that, to build an audience, we needed to be there every game. And for the most part, we were, but there would be some games off, that kind of thing. But over a three-, four-month spin, however long the season is, it’s hard. Especially because we didn’t have any business goals with it. It was like, “Let’s just do it.” And, like you said, at the end of every season, I’ve always been exhausted and wanted to quit and didn’t think that I would come back and do it the next year, but I have.

Finally, this season, this fourth season, our audience has skyrocketed. We finally got smart and decided to build an email list and do all the things to really connect with people and take it to that next level. I always think back to if I had quit a couple of years ago, just everything that would have been lost because I have people who email me from all over the world that are stationed everywhere that are like, “We are so glad you do the show because it allows us to connect with back home, and we miss it. It’s like hanging out with old friends. Thank you so much.”

It took us a while to get to that point, but I’m so glad that we kept it going. Probably no project that I’ve ever been on has taught me more the lesson of perseverance, both in what it teaches you and how much better you get and just the kind of audience commitment that you can develop over time. They’re like, “Wow, these guys are really committed. They keep showing up.” You develop a community that way.

Robert Bruce: So we’ve come at the next question a couple of different ways already, but I want to specifically ask you who you think should consider becoming a showrunner. In the sense of building their business, building an audience, who should consider this path of the showrunner?

Who Should Consider Becoming a New Media Producer

Jerod Morris: I think anyone should consider it because the potential is too great. Now as for actually doing it and who should decide to do it, there are a couple of questions to ask. It was actually on a recent episode of Hack the Entrepreneur by Jon Nastor, who’s going to be my co-host on The Showrunner, he had Brian Kurtz on. He was talking about this 100-to-zero mentality of really just focusing on giving and not expecting reciprocity in return.

When you’re going from considering to deciding, if you have a topic in mind and if you have a mindset where you really feel like that, like “I want to put this content out there just to help people to put it out there.” Yes, of course, in the back of your mind, there may be some business goals there, but is that what’s driving it? Is that genuine desire to help and to give driving it? And if that is, then that’s a checkmark that maybe you should decide to be a showrunner.

The other one is — I was thinking about this, this morning actually — podcasts are kind of like relationships. It always starts out great, and “You’re in love, and this is so much fun. And you think, ‘this is never going to change. I can do this every week,'” of course. But just like with any relationship, it does change eventually. Some harder times come. The big question is, can you work through them? That’s what makes a relationship sustained. And I think it’s what makes a podcast sustained because it’s, ‘Are you willing to roll up your sleeves and just do the work of showing up and producing the content?’ If you just think about what podcasting will be, right, the commitment, the work, even maybe the frustration you’ll face, I would say if you haven’t done a show, multiply that by 10, and that’s what it’ll actually be.

If that makes you run for the hills and if that really scares you, then maybe it’s not right for you right now. The timing just isn’t right, and revisit it at a later date. The thing is, if you do decide that you’re willing to roll up your sleeves and do it and put in the work, then think about what your expectations are for the benefits and the connection to you and an audience and all the good things that can come from a podcast. Take what you think and multiply that by 20 because it far outweighs what the negatives are. But sometimes you have to slog through a little bit of mud and frustration to do it, just like a relationship. Some of the most rewarding relationships I’ve ever had have had tough moments, and you fight through it. Ultimately, you see that it’s worth it.

If you really have a topic and a mentality of being audience-focused and you go into it with your eyes relatively wide open about what it’s going to take and you’re willing to do that, then I think that’ll allow you to have the long-term success you want. If you can answer those two questions in the affirmative, then you should start a podcast.

Robert Bruce: It makes me think, well I’ve been thinking lately about radio and television in general, specifically radio because, of course, podcast is the cousin of terrestrial radio and will become more so as we move along here. But I look at some of those — I love talk radio. I love NPR, like so many. But you look at some of these talk radio schedules, and the general concept is a person, a host, that is on the air for three hours a day, live by the way, five days a week, three hours a day, five days a week for, in some cases, 10, 15, 20, 25 years and longer. I’m not going to name any names because then we get into polarizing conversations about politics and personalities, which probably would be a great conversation, but we’ll have that another time. But you look at actually who is the King of All Media, always his name escapes me.

Jerod Morris: Howard Stern.

Robert Bruce: Howard Stern. Wait a minute, no. I’m thinking of the King of All New Media, Adam Carolla, right? Sorry, I got that wrong. Carolla was being interviewed somewhere. This is last year. He said, “I think that if you’re going to consider doing a podcast, you should do it daily.” He had a couple of specific ideas about that. Now, I don’t think that, that is applicable to everyone certainly. The idea behind it is what I like.

Carolla comes from old media. He is a hard-working son of a bitch that brings that to this new form, a relatively new form. What is he doing? He’s doing daily. His shows are longer, five days a week. He never misses one. All of that can seem scary, like, “Okay, I get it,” to somebody who may be thinking about this, “But I got a business to run. I got other things to do. I am not a professional broadcaster,” or in this case, a professional podcaster.

My point is there’s a lot of lessons there that we can learn. We don’t have to reinvent the wheel, for instance, but there’s a lot of lessons there about work ethic and why and how this stuff works. I know you’re a fan of radio, terrestrial and otherwise. What are some of the lessons? Are there a couple of lessons you can glean from? You’ve got to have some great sports shows that you’re addicted to, right?

What We Can (and Should) Learn from Traditional Media

Jerod Morris: One of the most successful sports talk radio stations ever is The Ticket here in Dallas. I am not a fan of Dallas sports teams. I’m not from here. Yet I listen to the show religiously because I can even listen to them talk about Dallas sports teams that I don’t care about, and it interests me. It’s because of the authenticity that just flows out of the radio, and because this is a station that started 20 years ago, a lot of the guys who started it are still there.

They have what even the more polished and buttoned-up ESPN shows don’t have, which is guys who have just been together and know each other, and there’s inside jokes that you have to listen a while to get into. Just that experience of listening and becoming a fan of this radio station that I would’ve said, “You’re crazy if you think I’m going to listen to this,” really showed me that when you take a long-term mentality, the kind of connection that you can get with your audience.

The other thing is, like you said, from these guys who go on the radio every day for three hours or who do a daily show, I think what they’ve learned and what they show and what I learned from doing this postgame show is, when you hit that record button and it’s on, you’re there. You’re laid bare a little bit, and that is frightening. Especially if you’re doing something that’s not scripted and a postgame show where you can’t even prepare, it’s like, “This just happened, and we’re talking about it two minutes later.” There’s no preparation.

I don’t know if anything else has taught me more about myself and the fact that I’m actually capable of more than I think I am than that because it’s that moment of just the spotlight’s on. You’re naked there. What do you have? Sometimes it’s been terrible. Sometimes I don’t have a lot, and you stumble through it. But you find a way, and you realize even your worst fears aren’t that bad. The benefits and what you get out of it so far surpasses what you think.

When you hear these guys on The Ticket who talk about what they’ve gotten from the station, how far beyond their wildest dreams it came from, from when they started it, that’s what you hear. There’s something about audio where you get that connection. When you get it, it’s like when a baseball player, they talk about hitting the home run, and they hit the sweet spot of the bat. You can’t necessarily feel it, yet at the same time, it feels perfect because you just hit so perfectly. That’s what it’s like. That’s why it makes all the hard work well worth it when you build that connection.

Robert Bruce: Alright. I’m going to serve up a big fat softball to you right now. We’ve talked about all of this — the benefits of being a showrunner, who might want to consider becoming a showrunner, why you want to do it. If somebody wants to start a podcast and they want some help in the beginning stages and as they move on to middle and more advanced stages, how does somebody become a showrunner? What’s the easiest way?

A Simple Shortcut to Becoming a Showrunner

Jerod Morris: The way that you become a showrunner is record your first episode and put it out in the world. At that point, you are a showrunner. Now, to get to become an accomplished showrunner and a good showrunner, obviously, you keep going from there because what you have to realize when you put that first episode out there — and I realize for me and a lot of shows, there’s been a big barrier just to getting the first one out there — but you just got to realize the first one is going to suck. It’s going to be terrible. It may be good in relation to others, but for you and what your expectations are, it’s going to suck. It just will.

Still, at that point, you’re the showrunner. Now from that point, then, it takes time to improve. Really, it takes session after session, stepping behind the microphone, prepping for interviews, fumbling through the editing process, fumbling through the promotion process, all of that, to make the mistakes that teach you the important lessons. That’s how I’ve learned most of this.

Now, Jon Nastor and I, who are running The Showrunner podcast, we’ve taken the liberty of doing a lot of that for you, fumbling through, making all the mistakes. I think that’s why we’re excited about creating the podcast and creating the course because it’s that ability to help show people where some the landmines are. Maybe help you avoid some of the mistakes, and allow you to learn the lessons without some of the mistakes so that you can get to that point of being more comfortable as a showrunner, better as a showrunner, more successful a little bit quicker.

You’re going to have to go through some of it on your own. No course can teach you how to get comfortable behind a microphone. You just have to do it. Understanding you’re going to suck, realizing that you got to make mistakes to learn the lessons, if you can find a way to learn some of those lessons without having to make the mistakes yourself, that can accelerate your process to achieving whatever your goals are for whatever show that you want to get out there into the world.

Robert Bruce: Like I said before, I got the sneak peek of the first episode of The Showrunner. I was extremely, extremely impressed. It was one of the best pieces of content that we have ever produced and second really only to the opening episodes of New Rainmaker, if I’m honest. You agree, right?

Jerod Morris: Oh, without question. Absolutely.

Robert Bruce: Thank you. Thank you. But this is a great podcast. It’s covering all of these things, teaching you to become a showrunner. Like Jerod said, they made the mistakes. Allow them to guide you through a less treacherous path on your road to becoming a showrunner. If that sounds good, if you want to do that, go to Showrunner.FM. That’s Showrunner.FM. As we record this, there is no email signup form on that page, but this is a little lesson in hanging it all out there. By the time you hear this, dear listener, there will be an email form that you can sign up and get updates to The Showrunner. Also, we’ll let you know, when the time comes, for the course that Jerrod Morris and Jon Nastor are putting together as we speak. How’s that going by the way? How’s the course coming along?

Jerod Morris: It’s going really well. Really, really well. Some the modules Jon has already developed are really good. We’ve already recorded some episodes based on those. It’s just going to be really helpful, useful, practical information for people and then with a little dose of the inspiration that you need.

I think sometimes we can overlook that a little bit. I guess it depends on someone’s perspective. Maybe getting behind a computer to type, that may be harder for some people than getting behind the microphone. For most people that I talk to, that step of getting behind the microphone and opening up and talking can be a fearful one. I’m certainly mindful of that. We want to make sure that you get those little doses of inspiration and motivation to keep it going as well.

By the way, thank you for the kind words on the first episode. It was, in part, inspired by those early episodes of New Rainmaker. I have a new-found appreciation for what those take, and certainly, we can’t do an episode like that all the time because what that takes to produce, it’s very, obviously, time intensive. But I think it’s worth it. You get a lot out of it. I hope that we’ll be able to do more episodes like that in the future because it was so much fun to do.

Robert Bruce: If you want to hear that episode right now, head over to Showrunner.FM. It’s ready for you there. Sign up for the email list for The Showrunner specifically. Hopefully, by the time this goes live, the =”https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id980796147/” target=”_blank”>iTunes link will be available for you as well, but that’s at Showrunner.FM.

Jerrod Morris, I am Robert Bruce. On behalf of New Rainmaker with Brian Clark, I want to thank you for coming on here and letting me grill you with a few questions. I really appreciate it, man, always. We got to do this again.

Jerod Morris: Absolutely. We do. Does this mean that the show art for New Rainmaker this week is going to have our pictures on it?

Robert Bruce: Yeah, I think we need to swap that out, at least for the week because I don’t think Brian gets back until Tuesday, so we’re good. We can do whatever we wanted. Thanks, man. Dear listener, thank you very much. We always appreciate you coming around. We’ll catch you guys next week.