3 Conversion Optimization Tactics that Work, with Talia Wolf

The Transcript

3 Conversion Optimization Tactics that Work, with Talia Wolf

Talia Wolf: Hello, my name is Talia Wolf. I’m a conversion optimization expert, a skydiver, Harry Potter fan, and of course, I’m unemployable.

Voiceover: Welcome to Unemployable, the show for people who can get a job, they’re just not inclined to take one, and that’s putting it gently. In addition to this podcast, thousands of freelancers and entrepreneurs get actionable advice and other valuable resources from the weekly Unemployable email newsletter. Join us by registering for our free Profit Pillars course, or choose to sign up for the newsletter only, at no charge. Simply head over to Unemployable.com, and take your business and lifestyle to the next level.

Brian Clark: Hey there. How’s your week so far? Fabulous, I truly hope. I’m Brian Clark, your host of Unemployable and CEO of Rainmaker Digital, the company behind Copyblogger, StudioPress, and the Rainmaker Platform.

This episode of Unemployable, however, is brought to you by the all-new FreshBooks, easy accounting software for freelancers and small businesses. Sign up for an unrestricted 30-day free trial. Try it out for free, exclusively for listeners of the show, by heading over to FreshBooks.com/Unemployable. And don’t forget to enter ‘Unemployable’ in the How Did You Hear About Us section.

As digital marketers, we have websites to attract leads, customers, and clients to our businesses. So it makes sense that the more leads, customers, and clients we attract, the more money we make.

Conversion optimization is simply a strategic process for increasing the effectiveness of your site at doing just that. Too often, though, we put off doing the work that will actually get us what we want and then wonder why just creating more content is not working out for us.

Today I’m talking with conversion optimization specialist Talia Wolf. She lays out the strategic importance of enhancing the prospect’s experience at your site and then shares three areas you can start improving today.

First one is why the Thank You page you deliver after a purchase or other action is just as important as the funnel that preceded that purchase or action. Next, we’re going to talk about how understanding human psychological triggers can help product sellers get more people to purchase at the pricing page. And then finally, what aspects of social proof can create enhanced trust and motivation for prospects to take your desired action without you saying a thing.

Tune in for these tips and more on this week’s Unemployable. If you enjoy this episode, please leave a rating or a review over at iTunes. It helps a lot. Hop over there by simply typing Unemployable.com/iTunes into your browser. Many, many thanks.

Talia, thank you so much for joining us today.

Talia Wolf: Thanks for having me.

Brian Clark: Absolutely. So want to talk about three areas where we can work on our conversion optimization. That is your specialty. But before we do that, why don’t you share with us a little bit about how you got to be who you are today. What was your journey, and how did you get started with conversion optimization?

How Talia Got Started with Conversion Optimization

Talia Wolf: Well, I started actually doing traffic, to be honest, more in social media and PPC. One of the things that really annoyed me from working with clients on social media was that everyone was looking at ‘likes’ and engagements. I was constantly looking at how can I drive actual sales, actual results? And I started changing different things without actually knowing that I was doing conversion optimization.

So I kind of stumbled upon conversion optimization. I changed things on landing pages and on ads, and I then realized that the methodology that I was using was incorrect. I built my own methodology based on emotional targeting, persuasion, and consumer psychology. I started really getting into it. I think it took a year until I understood that I was actually doing conversion optimization.

When I realized, “Okay, I have to stop doing traffic completely because all I care about is understanding what makes people buy, why do they purchase stuff, and how can I create an experience for them that will actually make them do that, delight them, and basically help.”

Then I started my own agency for conversion optimization, and I’ve been doing that and training for conversion optimization for almost eight years now.

Brian Clark: Excellent, I like you already. You actually focus on what happens when the traffic shows up — not just the traffic. So many people get stuck there. I’ve been doing this for 20 years, and it always happens. New people come in, they get obsessed with traffic, and don’t realize that there has to be a business objective at the other end of that.

Talia Wolf: Right. I think that there’s two parts to it. There’s the first part where people focus on driving traffic to their website, and they forget about optimizing the website itself. And then there’s the other part of it where you’ve taken the stage, you’ve started optimizing your website, and you’re forgetting about retention.

You have to do all three. You have to worry about people coming to your website. You have to optimize the experience for them. And you also have to take care of the people who are already customers, so they keep coming back.

Brian Clark: Absolutely. We’re going to look at three tactical areas where we can make improvements. But of course, all tactics have to be part of a larger strategy. How do you think about strategic conversion optimization? Is there a process that you go through when approaching someone’s website, say a client, as what you’re going to work on first?

How to Think About Strategic Conversion Optimization

Talia Wolf: Definitely. This is actually a continuation to what I started talking about before. Most marketers, unfortunately, when they do A/B testing or optimizing their website in any way, they’re constantly focusing on elements — so, “I want to optimize a call to action button. I’ll change the color of the call to action, or I’ll change a headline.”

The problem with these type of tests is that you get the results and you don’t really know why something worked or why it didn’t. So even if the blue button won, for example, there’s no indication to what you should be doing next.

For me, conversion optimization isn’t about optimizing one KPI and getting more sales. It’s about gaining knowledge. If you do conversion optimization the right way, you’re going to learn a lot about your customers. You’re going to understand them better and understand why they buy stuff. Once you understand why they buy things, you can create a better experience for them. You help them achieve their goals, help them complete their purchase, and then, obviously, you’re helping yourself.

For me, whenever I go to optimize a website, the first thing I do after I look at Google Analytics and heat maps, and do all the analytical research, the most important part for me is actually going into the strategic research. That’s when I interview customers, and I do different interviews and surveys. Then I’ll talk to the people in the company itself. I’ll profile customers, and I’ll look at different psychological profiles.

I really tap into the customer’s intent. I try to understand why they’re there on the website, what is the challenge that they’re facing, and how I can communicate better with them. Because once I understand their intent, their emotional triggers, it’s easier for me to decide what colors to use, what copy to use, what images to use. Even the font that I use is all directly around what that customer is looking for. If they want to feel loved or part of a community, I can create experience around that.

For me, those are the most important things. Tapping into and understanding what are the obstacles that people are facing — why are they here? Not just the features, the pricing, and about the company itself, but I focus on the customer. That, for me, is the most important part of conversion optimization –understanding them.

Then the best thing about that is that when I run a test — so I’ve decided or I’ve seen from my research that what motivates our customers, mainly, is they want to feel part of a community — I build all the experience around that. I A/B test it, and when I get a result, I know if it worked. If it didn’t, I know why.

I can spread that knowledge within the company, and I can say, “Here’s what people are looking for, and you should do this with your attention. You should do this with customer success. You should do this with even your shipping. Think about this and that. Think about your email marketing.” For me, conversion optimization is about driving change within the entire company. I’m constantly looking at the customer first.

Brian Clark: That’s right. That’s research and testing. You’re going to hear it from everyone over and over. You can’t escape it. Don’t even try.

Talia Wolf: Exactly.

Why the Thank You Page You Deliver After a Purchase or Other Action Is Just As Important As the ‘Funnel’ That Preceded That Purchase or Action

Brian Clark: Another thing that made me know that we were going to get along well was your critique of the funnel metaphor and how a lot of people think at the bottom of this funnel, that’s where conversion optimization happens and ends. We know that’s not true. Retention, keeping a customer, selling again to a customer — this is where the money is made, which is why I don’t like using the funnel metaphor at all. It gives people a wrong impression.

But you do have some really interesting ideas about using Thank You pages to begin that continuation beyond where people think the process ends. Let’s talk a little bit about that. It’s really fascinating.

Talia Wolf: Sure. Well, first, I think the most important thing to understand about Thank You pages is that most people don’t use them. Most people have a different popup that just says ‘thank you,’ and maybe you’ll get an email. But actually, the Thank You page is, psychologically, the best place within the funnel to actually retain your customer.

They’ve already taken a first step with you. They’ve already converted in some way. Whether they’ve subscribed to your list, they’ve downloaded your product, or whatever they’ve done, they’ve already taken a step. Now it’s your goal to basically create a relationship with them. That relationship is going to help you continue converting people and help bring them back to the product or your service.

I have certain ways that I’ve used Thank You pages in order to do that. Instead of just saying ‘thank you’ on a popup, you can use so many different ways in Thank You pages. One of the things that I do is personalize the Thank You page. I’d add an image or a photo of someone who works in the company thanking them, asking them more questions.

It’s a great place to validate your leads. If you’re collecting leads, you can ask them additional questions. They’ve already committed. If they don’t want to answer them, they won’t, but maybe you’ll get more information. You can ask them about their business, about their challenges. You can ask them, on the other hand, to share stuff and get them to basically invite their friends. This is something that’s quite well-known. You get people to invite others and to get [inaudible 00:12:08] and progress in the funnel. So there are various ways that you can do it.

The other thing that you can do, which I think is the most important thing with Thank You pages and especially once a customer’s converted, is to work on increasing the trust and building a personal connection with the customer. So showing social proof, testimonials, videos — anything that will help the customer feel good about their purchase is a great place to do on the Thank You page, and then also if you’re a product, and you want to help people take the next step in the funnel.

There’s all sorts of ways that you can use Thank You pages to continue the journey with the customer. I think that’s probably the bottom line. It doesn’t end there. The Thank You page isn’t just a place where you say ‘thank you’ and stop communicating with the customer. The idea is that you are asking them to take another step. You’re getting them committed.

Within psychology, it really is the best thing. The more people take steps with you — whether it’s if they fill out their profile or they invite their own friends — anything they do with you, the more they do, the more they’re committed to you, then the less likely they are to leave you. Thank You pages are a great place to do that.

Brian Clark: Yeah. You used the word ‘seducability’ right at that point of the initial purchase. What do you think about cross selling, upselling at that point?

Talia Wolf: Well, I definitely think it’s a good idea. It really does depend, though, on your customers, on your strategy. Loads of people do, do that. You can actually, on the Thank You page itself, say, “Thank you for downloading X, Y, and Z. Why don’t you try this and this product? Why don’t you go and try this and this?”

There really are so many opportunities to do that, and if you know your customers well and you can do that, then that’s perfect. I think it’s a great place to do it. You just have to know how to do it subtly and not start affiliating, badgering them, and asking them to do loads of things that they won’t really want to do, and then you’ll lose their business. It’s on the verge of understanding who your customers are and knowing if you can offer that next purchase for them.

Brian Clark: Yeah, and another thing with some products — say it’s SaaS or something to that affect, where the purchase requires you to take next step to begin the onboarding process — it also seems like that’s an opportunity to immediately engage on getting them to take those next steps.

For example, in our business, I know with our Rainmaker Platform, if they set up their site and it goes live, they don’t churn. But if they don’t, the churn rate … we do everything we can. “Here’s what to do. Do you need help? Here, do this.” I’m not sure we use the Thank You page. It’s more like the initial message. You even say that you’re basically telling someone to go check their inbox instead of using that real estate right then.

Talia Wolf: Right. I think that’s a step further than what a lot of other businesses do, which is just ‘thank you,’ and they don’t even send an email. But yes, you can actually onboard people straight from the Thank You page. That’s amazing. Any information that you can pull from that Thank You page and place within the product is amazing.

Yeah, I totally agree. It’s exactly that. It’s not just sending them to another place to check their email, but actually getting them to start the process here and there.

Brian Clark: Let’s move on to the product people here, as one, the pricing page. We know that’s kind of the do or die point. If you get them there and they leave, you’re so close.

Before we dive into the next two areas where you can win big with conversion optimization, let’s think about what that actually means. Let’s say you get more clients from making the right tweaks, so you get more business. You’ve got more work to handle. Good problems, right?

But with that, you’re also going to have to be doing more invoicing. More monitoring — who’s paid, who hasn’t, more payment options to keep track of. You certainly don’t need that getting in the way of actually delivering that client experience that you promised with your newly optimized website, right?

That’s why I want you to head over and try out FreshBooks. It’s designed for the type of business that you have, and it allows you to take the hassle of getting paid out of the way while you go ahead and focus on doing the work that gets you paid in the first place. You might even have some leftover time to further optimize your site, and then we get it all up to the next level again. So the all-new FreshBooks is easy to use, and it’s packed full of the features, really the top three features, that really liberate you from worrying about getting paid.

The first one is just sending professional-looking invoices that you create in less than 30 seconds. That helps. Set up online payments with just a couple clicks. This actually gets you paid four days faster. Then, not everyone pays on time, but you can see when your client has seen the invoice … and put an end to the guessing games.

Now, there’s at least another dozen fabulous features that will make your life easier as you succeed, but you got to see it for yourself. FreshBooks is offering a 30-day, unrestricted free trial to listeners of the show. Just claim it by going to FreshBooks.com/Unemployable and enter ‘Unemployable’ in the How Did You Hear About Us section.

Let’s get back to Talia.

What can we do on our pricing pages to try, other than obviously test everything, but where do we get our hypotheses from? What should we try first?

How Understanding Human Psychological Triggers Can Help Product Sellers Get More People to Purchase at the Pricing Page

Talia Wolf: Well, I think similar to any landing page and any sales page that you’re doing, the pricing page is a place where you’re basically asking someone to commit to you. You’re asking them to put in their credit card and start paying you. Many times, companies go quite wrong about it where they’re just listing, “Here are the features that we have, and this is the price. This is the yearly plan. This is the monthly plan. Okay go.”

But we do need to understand that when a customer comes to this page, they’re using this page in order to define if they’re going to purchase or not. Granted, there are people who are going to come in who’ve already been to the page and are a different awareness level, and they might just be there to convert and continue. But most people are seeing the pricing page, they want to decide what plan is best for them.

So for you, as a marketer, your goal is to help them do that. Your goal is to basically help them choose the right plan for them. You can do that by naming the plans in a certain way, helping them identify themselves. There’s different ways, like saying, “Here’s the Basic. Here’s the Pro.” When you go into email marketing platforms, you’ll see, “Up to 5,000 subscribers, this is the plan for you. Up to 10,000 subscribers, this is the plan for you.” You want to think in terms where you can help the customer immediately find where they fit in.

Other than that, you also want to think about how you can build trust and credibility. It’s not enough that you might have done that on the home page, or on the landing page, but you want to think about how you can build trust on the page itself.

Sometimes it would be by adding a few logos of well-known companies that work with you, but one thing that I like to do is actually add an actual testimonial. Show the actual customer who’s happy with this specific plan and help them feel better. The more they see people like them who are converting and happy about your product, obviously, they will feel more secure and want to convert with you.

But there’s also other ways. You can use different cognitive biases to basically persuade people. There’s anchoring. There’s analysis paralysis, which are all different glitches that we have in our brains. The way pricing is set up. You want to start maybe from the highest price to the lowest price, and you want to be able to set an anchor. You see one price, and you say, “Oh, wow, that is way too expensive.” But if you look at the middle pricing, “Oh, okay, that makes more sense.”

There are different ways you can do that. But for me, in strategy, you always want to think about keeping it simple. You always want to think about how you can create trust, how you can clear everything, and obviously, help them make it comparable. You want them to be able to compare between the pricing plans and find what’s the right thing for them.

I have done quite a few pricing pages where we’ve actually asked people to put in the different criteria that they’re looking for, and then match the right plan for them. We’ve seen great success with that. We’re so overwhelmed with information today. We see between 4,000 and 6,000 messages a day. People are trying to contact us and advertise to us, and everyone is trying to grab our attention. We do need someone to focus us, to help us make these decisions.

So the clearer you are, and the more precise you are towards your customer, the easier it’s going to be for them to make that decision. You really want to avoid getting analysis paralysis, which is basically if we have too many options and they’re too hard to choose from, our brain’s default is to just say, “Okay, bye. I’m not going to choose anything.”

Brian Clark: Let me ask you about the comment you just made. Do you see AI and chat bots, at least more sophisticated versions than we have now, being the intermediate step there where you ask what you’re looking for and it provides a solution, as opposed to the typical plan boxes that we use?

Talia Wolf: Yeah, I have seen quite great success with it. It started with chats, which has always been helpful, especially in e-commerce. But yeah, I definitely think when you have the combination of both personalization and the smarts of a machine that can tell you what is the right thing for you, that is extremely helpful.

You still have to have a person behind there to be able to dictate what is the right thing for each person and personalize it, and copy and design and color. But I definitely think this is the next step, and we want to see a lot more of that within the shopping experience, helping people take the next step.

Brian Clark: Yep. That’s definitely the future. Let’s go back to something that’s ancient, an aspect of human nature that just drives us. It amazes me, to this day … this happened yesterday, where you’ll see someone who holds themselves out as a digital marketer, and then they’ll ask questions like, “Why do you limit the number of places in your training? Why do you put a time limit on your promotion?” And I’m like, “You’re a marketer, and you don’t understand the psychological impact of scarcity.” People just don’t do anything sometimes until you threaten to take it away — which, of course, you mention is loss aversion.

Talk about that a little bit because we have to make people understand that you can’t get around human nature. It makes no sense to me, but I’ve seen it, again for decades now, where if you threaten to take it away, then people act. If you just make it generally available, even if they want it, they’re more motivated by loss than by benefit.

Talia Wolf: Definitely. I’ll take it one step back just to prove what you’re talking about. I think the biggest problem we have today in any aspect of marketing isn’t the tools, isn’t the platform that we’re using. It’s not the budgets. It’s us, marketers. The vast majority of marketers are treating their customers as if they’re pieces of data. Geographical location, the browser they’re using, their age, and maybe the device that they’re using. That’s what marketers are looking at.

They’re forgetting that there’s people behind their screens. People with challenges. People who just had a crappy day and are looking to escape from it. Or people who are having a great day and they’re looking to buy a present for their significant other. They’re people. They’re not numbers. They’re not just credit cards. The more we look for automating products and different kind of automatic options and solutions, we forget that they’re people.

That’s where it’s coming from. People forget that we’re motivated by these kind of things. With scarcity, if something is about to go away, we want more of it. In fact, there’s all sorts of different cognitive biases. I have a whole list on my website of like 50 of them of just how to use them because there’s so many. But the whole idea of understanding that our brain is filled with so many different options, and we have so many things that affect us, and the way things are presented to us is how we make a decision.

We love to think of ourselves as rational people that make rational decisions, and we know exactly what we’re doing — but that’s not true. We’re very much persuaded by the way things are presented to us. Whether it’s the color psychology or whether, as you said, if it says “Five more minutes,” or “There’s only three items left,” or you open your cart for only five days. When I promote my conversion optimization training, my cart is open for five days only. That’s all I have. It works far better than just having it open all year.

There’s various different ways that you can tap into understanding customer psychology, to understanding what stands behind our decision-making and helping customers do that. I think people just need to take a step back and remember that there’s people behind the screens.

Brian Clark: Yeah, amen to that.

What Aspects of Social Proof Can Create Enhanced Trust and Motivation for Prospects to Take the Desired Action Without You Saying a Thing?

Brian Clark: That’s a nice segue into one of my favorite topics within conversion optimization and copywriting — and I know it’s one of yours, too — and that’s social proof. It cracks me up whenever someone says, “I’m not influenced by social … ” Yes you are. Everyone is. I am. I just know when it’s happening, but it still does.

If you look at an article that has no engagement … in fairness, engagement is not a bad thing. It’s just not the end goal. It’s just a step along the way. If you get a heavily shared article, you look to that, that gives you a psychological cue that, “This is appreciated by people, and therefore, it may be worth my time.” You dive into it, and then you’re persuaded with another mechanism that brings you closer down the funnel, or whatever metaphor you want to use there.

Give me some of your top tips on using social proof to improve conversion rates.

Talia Wolf: I couldn’t agree more. The biggest thing that annoys me with social proof is that everyone thinks it’s just a bunch of logos on your website. You have the Forbes logo and the Entrepreneur logo, and that’s enough. There we have our social proof. There’s so much more to it, and people are really losing so much by not supplying social proof.

The number one thing you want to understand about social proof is that it’s not there to just look good and say, “Oh, wow, this guy has written for Forbes.” The idea of social proof is to actually address challenges and objections of your customers without you needing to say that.

So instead of you needing to say, “Hey, I’m a trustworthy company,” you can actually use social proof to help people feel that way and just eliminate that objection. This is such a great way. Instead of writing content over content and trying to push everything on your landing page, you can use social proof to make people feel in a certain way and remove these obstacles from them.

The most important thing is to actually understand what the challenges are of your customers. What are the objections that they have? So actually speaking to customers. I’m always surprised when I speak to my clients. Ninety percent of them haven’t even spoken to a client in the past year or two. You want to actually understand and talk to them, interview them, survey them, and ask them, “What are the obstacles? Why did you come to the website? What are the biggest objections that you had before actually converting?”

These are the things that are really important because they’re going to help you establish the content of your social proof. If you understand that someone is worried about how long this product is going to last, you need to have the option to put that in social proof. You can reach out to a customer who thought that was an objection in the past and say, “Hey, was this sold for you? Do you still feel this way? No? Great. Why don’t you tell me about that, and I’ll put that on the website.”

That is amazing social proof because that’s actually going to address something that people care about. That’s the number one thing — talking to your customers and understanding their objections.

Once you’ve done that, there’s a few tips about social proof that you need to understand. The one thing, for me, is that people are really worried about displaying bad reviews and negative criticism. I’m actually really for it because it gives authenticity to your website. That’s one of the tips that I always say is, “Don’t be afraid to show bad things.” If someone looks at your website and one of your products on your website and says, “Okay, it took longer to deliver, and that’s the only issue. Then okay. I’m fine with that.” So it gives it some credibility.

You also have to think about where you’re going to have the social proof on your website, how many personal details you’re going to have.

I was looking at an email because we’re writing a new article about emails for attention. Some of the emails include social proof, but it’s a quote, no title, no name. You don’t even know who supplied this quote, but it’s social proof. So the more information you can supply — the name of the person, the age, where they’re from — is outstanding.

A few months ago I did a test where we showed social proof from different areas. So people that came in from New York saw quotes from people in New York. And people that came in from Los Angeles saw quotes from people from Los Angeles. It’s just a great way to help people, to personalize the experience for them. Those are things that come to mind.

You also want to think about introducing images to your social proof. I don’t understand how you can do without it. Not stock photos, actual photos of people, your actual clients. Put them in there. I think those are my main things. Do you have anything to add that I might have missed?

Brian Clark: Again, it makes me laugh that some people think that where they’ve written is the only thing that constitutes social proof. It is an aspect of social proof, but really social proof is anything that reflects what other people think or feel about what you’re doing or have taken action that coincides with the action that they want to take.

For example, you want people to join your newsletter and you have 10,000 subscribers, or even better, you have 10,392 subscribers — specificity. We use a specific customer count on our StudioPress site because it’s a big number, and it’s impressive. We try to keep it updated, so it’s a real number, not a rounded number — which you call the ‘bandwagon effect,’ which is actually correct. Testimonials, reviews, I agree with what you’re saying about not making everything rainbows and unicorns. That is the hardest thing for people to do.

Do you feel like you have to prod your clients to accept that bit of wisdom? It’s just like in copywriting when you throw up an objection or a ‘this may not be for you’ early in the copy, it works like a charm. But people don’t want to believe you.

Talia Wolf: Right. I definitely agree. The way I did that, by the way, is I used it on my website, and I used it on my sales page when I was selling the course when I first launched. “This course is not for you” — that was one of the biggest titles that I had on the sales page. It worked really, really well because people feel like a) it’s credibility, b) it’s a great way to point that this is the worst thing.

If we’re talking about e-commerce, a lot of times people will just comment and say, “It didn’t come the exact size I was expecting. Oh, it took a little more time.” It gives people the understanding that, “Okay, if these are the worst things, then it’s not that bad.” It takes some time to get clients to agree, but I try and probe them to do that.

Brian Clark: Yeah. It’s just like advice that I say. Write or create content in a way that reflects who you are, your voice, your values, and who cares if you run off half the people because the other half are going to love you more. Yet people are like, “No, I don’t want to offend anyone.”

Some of this stuff is counterintuitive, but it is essential to actually appearing trustworthy and credible. That’s really the battle you’re fighting. You don’t want to not offend someone. What you want to do is appeal strongly to the right people.

Talia Wolf: Agreed, completely.

Brian Clark: Talia, thank you so much for your time. I’m going to put some of your articles on these subjects in the show notes because they’re really solid and in-depth. Can you tell people where they should go to find out more from you? You also mentioned a cognitive bias cheat sheet. That may be a good thing to point to.

Talia Wolf: Yeah. You can find everything on GetUplift.co. That’s where I have all my resources, blog, and the training and everything, so you can get that. I’ll also send you the link to the cognitive bias cheat sheet, so you can download it. I also have a color psychology cheat sheet. That would be awesome for you guys, too. I’ll just send you all the links. So GetUplift.co, and you can also follow me on twitter. I’m @TaliaGw.

Brian Clark: Excellent. Yes, I will get those links, and I will put them in the show notes so that everyone can find them. Again, thank you so much for your time. I’m so glad my friend Joanna Wiebe introduced us. Number one, any friend of Joanna is good with me, but we also got to geek out on some of my favorite topics. I appreciate it.

Talia Wolf: Thank you for having me.

Brian Clark: All right, everyone, come on now. These are things that make you more money. That’s important. Let’s not put conversion optimization aside as if it’s something nice to have. It’s kind of the thing. Take a look at Talia’s resources at her website and some of these other articles that I’m going to post for you, but most importantly, keep going.