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How Freaks and Misfits Can Succeed in Business: A Conversation with Chris Brogan

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Previous Episode:The 2 Reasons People Don't Click on Your Buttons ... And How to Overcome Them More Episodes Next Episode:Why You Should Curate Content (And How to Do It Right)

All Episodes:

March 30, 2020

The Advantage of Email Marketing, Featuring Nathan Barry of ConvertKit

March 15, 2020

How to Write Content That Resonates

March 9, 2020

How to Conquer Your Fear of Selling, with Leah Neaderthal

March 2, 2020

How to Build Remarkable Products to Grow Your Business, with Ramit Sethi

February 17, 2020

What You Should Talk about on Your Podcast, with Tara McMullin

February 9, 2020

How to Win at Search in 2020

February 3, 2020

How to Turn Pro as a Freelance Writer

January 27, 2020

Marketing Segmentation and Personalization with Brennan Dunn of RightMessage

January 20, 2020

Podcasting Still Matters, with Pat Flynn from Smart Passive Income

January 13, 2020

The New Look Copyblogger in 2020

January 8, 2020

New Year, New Copyblogger

October 23, 2019

The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur with John Jantsch

October 2, 2019

Consistency Will Take You Further

September 25, 2019

The Past, Present, and Future of Online Learning

September 16, 2019

How to Get More of the Right Things Done

September 9, 2019

Why the Future Is Still Email

September 3, 2019

What’s Next for
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August 26, 2019

How Smart, Nimble Companies Are Using Webinars Today

August 19, 2019

The Clarity Method: A Conversation with Tim Brownson

August 12, 2019

Digital Business Trends and the Latest on the Rainmaker Platform

August 5, 2019

4 ‘Naive’ Business Principles for Enduring Success

July 8, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 3: Polishing and Promotion

July 1, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 2: Getting It Written

June 24, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 1: Thinking and Research

June 17, 2019

3 Almost Magical Headline Ingredients for More Traffic, Engagement, and Shares

June 10, 2019

Lessons Any Business Can Learn from an Impressive Influencer Marketing Fail

June 3, 2019

13 Ways of Looking at a Headline

May 27, 2019

The 7 ‘Bad’ Habits of Incredibly Successful People

May 20, 2019

Writers: How to Move from Making a Living to Driving Revenue

May 13, 2019

Choose the Right Frame to Boost the Power of Your Content

May 6, 2019

How Copywriting Teacher Belinda Weaver Reenergized Her Email List for Massive Engagement

April 29, 2019

3 Reasons Why Really Good Writers Sometimes Can’t Find Great Clients

April 22, 2019

3 Slightly Embarrassing Emotions that Drive Effective Copywriting

April 15, 2019

Get 10 Content Marketing Boosters in 20 Minutes

April 8, 2019

Becoming the ‘Chief Empathy Officer’ of Your Copy and Content

April 1, 2019

One of the Most Important Marketing Decisions You’ll Ever Make

March 18, 2019

What Nobody Wants to Hear about Content Marketing

March 11, 2019

Getting Your Big, Scary Projects Finished: A Conversation about Growing Gills

March 4, 2019

When Is It Time to Bring in a Professional Copywriter?

February 25, 2019

Using Content to Systematically Move Prospects Toward a Purchase

February 18, 2019

Understanding the Lifecycles of Your Website, with Pamela Wilson

February 11, 2019

5 Ways to Manage a Stress-Induced Creative Slump

February 4, 2019

3 Ways Strategic Content Can Drive Measurable Business Outcomes

January 28, 2019

The Social Media Platform Every Content Creator Should Be Using in 2019 (Nope, It’s Not Facebook)

January 21, 2019

Real Talk about Generating High-Quality Content

January 14, 2019

A Conversation with Paul Jarvis about Staying a ‘Company of One’

October 29, 2018

The 3 Plus 1 Foundational Elements of Effective Persuasion

October 22, 2018

5 Essential Copywriting Techniques from Copyblogger

October 15, 2018

5 Ways to Recover Your Professional and Creative Confidence

October 8, 2018

5 Stinky Sardine Secrets to Make Your Content More Fascinating

September 24, 2018

The Mindset ‘Hack’ that Frees Your Creativity and Makes You Happier

September 18, 2018

How to Kill Your Sales and Mess up Your Business: Lessons from a Used Car Salesman

September 4, 2018

The 7 Things Writers Need to Make a (Good) Living

August 27, 2018

Are You Making These Social Media Marketing Mistakes?

August 20, 2018

Fix These 7 About Page Mistakes for More Traffic and (Possibly) Better SEO

August 13, 2018

7 Ways to Boost Your Creativity

August 6, 2018

A 10-Step ‘Checklist’ for Your Content Marketing Site

July 30, 2018

The 3 Keys to Publishing Strong Content … Even If You Aren’t a ‘Great’ Writer (Yet)

July 23, 2018

Fix These 3 Points of Failure to Get Better Results for Your Content

July 16, 2018

Big Changes at ConvertKit: A Discussion with Founder Nathan Barry

July 9, 2018

3 Skills to Master to Become a Marketing Badass this Year

June 18, 2018

The Quiet Power of Conversational Copy

June 11, 2018

5 Rules of Thumb to Relieve SEO-Induced Stress

June 4, 2018

How to Use the GDPR to Make Your Business Stronger than Ever

May 14, 2018

‘Good Karma’ Selling that Works: A Conversation with Tim Paige

April 30, 2018

How to Get More Comfortable (and Effective) at Selling

April 23, 2018

Privacy and Permission in the Wake of Cambridge Analytica

April 16, 2018

Seth Godin and How to Create Change

April 9, 2018

Email? Chatbots? Social? How Are We Supposed to Reach People?

March 26, 2018

The Double-Edged Sword that Can Make (or Break) Your Content

March 19, 2018

Make More Progress by Getting (Gently) Out of Your Comfort Zone

March 12, 2018

Are You Doing Content Marketing Wrong?

March 5, 2018

Storytelling for Modern Content Marketing (Part 2 of 2)

February 26, 2018

Storytelling for Modern Content Marketing (Part 1 of 2)

February 19, 2018

10 Quality Factors Search Engines Need to See on Your Site

February 12, 2018

A Simple Content Strategy to Make Your Site Massively More Useful

February 5, 2018

How to Avoid a Heartbreaking Business Failure

January 29, 2018

Hey Writers: Let’s Get You Paid What You’re Worth

January 15, 2018

5 Keys to Making Your Content More Shareable

December 18, 2017

3 Observations on Trends (but not Predictions) for 2018

December 11, 2017

3 Tips Now to Build a Strong Foundation in 2018

December 4, 2017

The 3 Success Factors that Help Writers Earn a Great Living

November 27, 2017

How to Recognize a Great Content Idea

November 20, 2017

How to Cultivate a More Meaningful Gratitude Practice

November 13, 2017

Advice for Poets, Advice for Killers

October 30, 2017

Face Your Business Fears on Halloween Week

October 23, 2017

How to Make Smarter Decisions about Your Website

October 2, 2017

A Series of Unfortunate Content Events

September 18, 2017

The Evolution of a Successful Copywriter

August 28, 2017

7 Ways to Improve Your Marketing by Harnessing the Power of Evil

August 14, 2017

Smart Questions from our Brilliant Audience

August 7, 2017

Does the Web Have Enough Patience for Your In-Depth Content?

July 31, 2017

How to Write (Much Better) Blog Comments

July 17, 2017

Which Works Better: Positive or Negative Content?

July 10, 2017

How to Attract the Exact Customers You Want

July 3, 2017

How to Create Stability and Success as an Artist

June 19, 2017

Two Powerful Resources for Life-Changing Growth

June 12, 2017

How to Turn All that Marketing Advice into Action

June 5, 2017

How to Develop a Compelling Marketing Idea in 4 Steps

May 30, 2017

Getting Over the Fear of Selling

May 22, 2017

Talking Community and Digital Business with Tara Gentile

May 15, 2017

Plagiarism, Self-Deception, Bad Sandwiches, and Other Interesting Disasters

May 1, 2017

Professional Writers: Find Out How to Get Certified by Copyblogger

April 17, 2017

The Painful Core Lesson Taught by 3 Astonishing Big-Brand Fails

April 3, 2017

5 Mindset Habits that Actually Work

March 27, 2017

On Grammar, Usage, and Not Being a Great Big Jerk

March 20, 2017

Creative Strategies for Content Writers

March 13, 2017

A New Ultra-Easy Resource for Creating Excellent WordPress Sites

February 20, 2017

Thriving Freelancers and Clients from Hell

February 13, 2017

Politics, Content Marketing, and the 2017 Super Bowl Ads

February 6, 2017

Copyblogger Book Club: Winning the Story Wars

January 23, 2017

3 Content Marketing Strategy Fails (and How to Fix Them)

January 9, 2017

The 2017 Content Excellence Challenge: Your January Assignments

December 19, 2016

Bad Writing Advice: The ‘Post Truth’ Episode

December 12, 2016

Get Ready Now for a Creative and Productive 2017

December 5, 2016

The 4 Pillars Every Online Business Is Built On

November 28, 2016

Orbit Media’s Latest Survey of 1000 Bloggers

November 14, 2016

Have You Already Missed the Podcasting Gold Rush?

November 7, 2016

Getting More Traffic, Links, and Shares to Your Content

October 31, 2016

5 Quick Wins for Content Marketers

October 24, 2016

Announcing: An Intriguing New Tool for Collaborative Content

October 17, 2016

A New Book to Make Content Marketing Easier

October 10, 2016

Behind the Scenes at Copyblogger: Our New Email Approach

October 3, 2016

The ‘Obligatory’ Structure of Effective Content

September 26, 2016

7 Powerful Content Strategies Borrowed from Advertising Masters

September 15, 2016

How to Handle Demographic and Psychographic Segmentation (without Looking Like an Idiot)

September 8, 2016

Ethics, Professionalism, and Good Manners for Content Marketers

September 1, 2016

3 Questions that Can Haunt Creative Professionals

August 25, 2016

How to Give and Get Exceptional Testimonials, Part Two

August 18, 2016

How to Give and Get Exceptional Testimonials, Part One

August 11, 2016

Are You Leaving Money on the Table with Weak Headlines?

August 4, 2016

Content Marketing for Nonprofits

July 28, 2016

The One-Two Punch that Creates the Most Successful Copywriters

July 21, 2016

Pokémon Go: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

July 14, 2016

5 Suggestions When You’re Writing About Controversy

July 7, 2016

Announcing: A Breakthrough Educational Collaboration between Copyblogger and U.C. Davis

June 30, 2016

How to Break Past the #1 Conversion Killer

June 23, 2016

The New Age of Marketing Automation: Powerful, Simple, Cost-Effective

June 16, 2016

How to Make a (Really Good) Living as a Freelance Writer

June 9, 2016

Self-Publishing, Side Hustles, and Doing It All: A Conversation with Linda Formichelli

June 2, 2016

A Process for Content Marketing Success

May 26, 2016

Content Marketing Best Practices: Getting Email Opt-Ins

May 19, 2016

Behind the Scenes: Adventures in Advertising

May 12, 2016

Trump, Apple, and Facebook Advertising: Content Marketing News for May, 2016

May 5, 2016

Sally Hogshead and the Art of Fascination

April 28, 2016

Behind the Scenes at the Rainmaker Digital Company Meeting!

April 14, 2016

Social Media News, Social Media Constants

April 7, 2016

Strategies for B2B Podcasting, with Clark Buckner

March 31, 2016

Content Marketing Success Stories: Fitness Powerhouse Examine.com

March 24, 2016

Behind the Scenes: An Inside Look at the Rainmaker FM Redesign

March 17, 2016

Our Latest Advice and Resources for Digital Business Owners

March 10, 2016

Should Content Publishers Adopt Google’s New AMP?

March 3, 2016

7 Ways to Get Smarter with Social Media Listening

February 25, 2016

Content Marketing Shout-Out: Orbit Media and Andy Crestodina

February 18, 2016

The Tactic You Should Steal from Copyblogger

February 11, 2016

Content Marketing News for February, 2016

February 4, 2016

Email Marketing: The Misunderstood Powerhouse

January 28, 2016

The Secret Weapon Behind Great Websites: The Role of the Content Editor

January 21, 2016

Behind the Scenes: The Relaunch and Re-Imagining of Copyblogger.com

January 14, 2016

Trends and Predictions for Digital Commerce: A Conversation with Brian Clark

January 7, 2016

2016 Content Marketing Resolutions

December 28, 2015

The End of The Lede, The Beginning of Copyblogger FM

November 10, 2015

Constraints Can Be Blessings (Plus 2 Other Essential Lessons Jerod Re-Learned This Week)

November 3, 2015

Long or Short? The Content Length Question Answered, Once and For All

October 27, 2015

The Simple Publishing Hack That Gives Old Content New Life (Plus 3 More Tips)

October 20, 2015

The Surprising Truth about Earning a Profit from Your Content

October 13, 2015

How to Move Your Audience From Infatuation to Love

October 6, 2015

3 Things Your Audience Wants You to Know about Useful Content

September 29, 2015

Revisiting Authenticity: What It Is, What It’s Not, and Why It Matters

September 22, 2015

Publishing Lessons from Dave Pell, the Most Fascinating Email Newsletter Writer in the Business

September 15, 2015

Why Content Creators Should Kiss Their Programmers

September 8, 2015

Finally — A Podcast about the Superiority of Written Content

September 1, 2015

Hot Seat: Grilling Jerod on Using Audio Content to Seed a Content Arsenal

August 25, 2015

How to Optimize Your Headlines for Content Discovery with Vinegar (Before You Die of Cholera)

August 18, 2015

5 Stories That Explain Jerod Morris (Plus One Massive Marketing Lesson)

August 11, 2015

Lede Potpourri: A Big Idea, Talking About Demian Behind His Back, and Lessons from #PM15

August 4, 2015

How to Attend an Industry Conference Like a Boss

July 28, 2015

Getting the Most Out of a Conference When You’re There to Promote, Part 1

July 21, 2015

How Much Does the Modern Content Marketer Need to Know About SEO?

July 14, 2015

Are Podcasters Digitally Sharecropping Without Realizing It?

July 7, 2015

Celebrating Our 101st Episode (with a Special Guest Interviewer)

June 30, 2015

Why The Phrase ‘Leaders Are Readers’ Should Die

June 23, 2015

Why You Should Think Outside the Box About Online Courses

June 16, 2015

The Proper (and Safe) Way to Republish Old Articles

June 9, 2015

How to Grow an Audience on LinkedIn by Repurposing Content

June 2, 2015

Key Takeaways from Three-and-a-Half Hours with Henry Rollins

May 27, 2015

Rapid-Fire Takeaways from Authority Rainmaker

May 19, 2015

The Proper Way to Grow an Audience on Medium

May 12, 2015

The Introvert’s Guide to Launching a Successful Podcast

May 5, 2015

The One Quality All Popular Podcasts Share

April 28, 2015

Proof That Grit Is the Only Way to Reach Your Potential

April 21, 2015

Do We Celebrate Failure Too Much?

April 14, 2015

Choose Yourself Part 2: James Altucher Fights Back

April 7, 2015

Should We Fear Content Shock? (Or Could It Actually Be a Good Thing?)

March 31, 2015

Should You Really ‘Walk in the Direction of Your Fear’?

March 24, 2015

Is ‘Choose Yourself’ Good Advice … or New-Age Phooey?

March 17, 2015

Is Authority Earned or Bestowed?

March 3, 2015

Dan Pink on How to Succeed in the New Era of Selling

February 24, 2015

Here’s How to Answer the Most Important Question in Life (and Make a Living from It)

February 17, 2015

Sally Hogshead on How You Can Unlock Your Natural Ability to Fascinate

February 10, 2015

How to Learn from Your Successes

January 27, 2015

How to Learn From Your Mistakes

January 13, 2015

Lessons Learned from Conducting Two Monster Audience Surveys

December 16, 2014

Adaptive Content: A Trend to Pay Attention to in 2015

December 2, 2014

The Most Important Lessons You Should Have Learned in 2014

November 18, 2014

How We Built Our Careers Online (And What You Can Learn From It)

November 4, 2014

Interview with Brian Clark: How Customer Experience Maps Help You Develop a Smarter Content Strategy

October 21, 2014

How Empathy Maps Help You Speak Directly to the Hearts of Your Audience

October 7, 2014

How to Ignite a Feeling in Your Audience

September 23, 2014

Are You Overlooking This Cornerstone of a Smart Content Strategy?

June 26, 2014

How to Curate Knowledge, Turn it Into Wisdom, and Build Your Audience

June 19, 2014

How Successful Writers Curate Ideas

June 13, 2014

The 5 W’s of Link Curation

June 6, 2014

Why You Should Curate Content (And How to Do It Right)

May 30, 2014

How Freaks and Misfits Can Succeed in Business: A Conversation with Chris Brogan

May 23, 2014

The 2 Reasons People Don’t Click on Your Buttons … And How to Overcome Them

May 16, 2014

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May 9, 2014

How to Be Authentic

May 2, 2014

How to Close With Style

April 25, 2014

The Best of Seth Godin on Copyblogger

April 17, 2014

How to Choose Arresting Images for Your Blog Posts (And Why You Should)

April 11, 2014

Removing Blog Comments: The View So Far

April 4, 2014

How to Use Internal Cliffhangers

March 28, 2014

Hangout Hot Seat with Brian Clark

March 21, 2014

How to Tell a Seductive Story

March 14, 2014

How to Create Exquisite Subheads

March 7, 2014

How to Write Killer Bullet Points

February 28, 2014

How to Write Damn Good Sentences

February 21, 2014

How to Use Persuasive Words

February 14, 2014

Michael Stelzner on Capturing Emails and Committing to Quality

February 7, 2014

How to Nail Your Opening

January 24, 2014

How to Write a Magnetic Headline (in Under 15 Minutes)

May 18, 2012

Seth Godin on When You Should Start Marketing Your Product, Service, or Idea

May 11, 2012

How to Attract an Audience by Integrating Content, Social, and Search

March 30, 2012

Why You Should Build an Audience Before You Build a Business

March 16, 2012

How Chris Brogan Built His Content Platform

March 9, 2012

Jay Baer on How to Turn Interested Prospects into Lifelong Customers

March 2, 2012

A 30-Minute Copywriting Course from a Master of the Craft

February 24, 2012

The Path to a Legendary Copywriting Career

February 17, 2012

5 Tips for Affiliate Marketing Beginners

February 10, 2012

Why Not Sell Physical Stuff With Digital Media?

February 3, 2012

Whether You Call it Blogging or Not, Online Content Still Rules

January 27, 2012

Answers to the 3 Biggest Email Marketing Questions We Get

January 20, 2012

How to Newsjack Your Way to Free Media Exposure with David Meerman Scott

January 13, 2012

Steven Pressfield and the War of Work

November 18, 2011

The Strategy Behind the Copyblogger Redesign

November 11, 2011

7 Ways to Create an Email Marketing "Snowball Effect"

November 4, 2011

Warning: If You're Not a Privacy Nut, You're Losing Sales

October 28, 2011

The 3 Kinds of Writing That Builds a Business

October 21, 2011

The Art of Seductive Writing: A Conversation with Robert Greene

October 7, 2011

Why Content Marketing Doesn't Suck

September 30, 2011

Are You Weird Enough to Succeed at Content Marketing?

September 23, 2011

What Works With SEO Right Now and Why No One Does What You Want

September 16, 2011

Are You Flushing Your Marketing Down the Social Media Toilet?

September 11, 2011

Seth Godin on Blogging, Business Books, and Creating Content that Matters

September 2, 2011

The Return of Copyblogger Radio …

June 10, 2011

Answered: Your Most Burning Content Marketing Questions

June 3, 2011

How to Get All the Clients and Customers You Can Handle

May 20, 2011

Is Content Marketing Worth the Work?

May 13, 2011

How to Write Nearly Undeletable Emails

May 6, 2011

Is the Online Gold Rush Over?

April 22, 2011

The Art of Enchanting Online Marketing with Guy Kawasaki

April 15, 2011

The Market for Something to Believe in is Infinite: An Interview with Hugh MacLeod

April 8, 2011

How to Constantly Create Compelling Content

March 25, 2011

The Content Marketing Question You Need to Answer … Now

March 18, 2011

Good SEO is Simple. Really.

March 4, 2011

Did Social Media Kill the Marketing Star?

February 25, 2011

How to Write (and Execute) a Simple but Powerful Business Plan

February 17, 2011

How to Kick Groupon to the Curb and Become a Local Hero

February 3, 2011

Convert … Or Die

January 27, 2011

Attention: Is Your Headline Getting Any?

January 20, 2011

How to Craft Landing Pages that Work

January 13, 2011

Why Every Smart Business is in the Media Business

January 5, 2011

2011 Content Marketing Predictions

December 15, 2010

Tim Ferriss on How to Reinvent Yourself with Blog Marketing

December 8, 2010

The 6 Elements of an Influential Web Experience

December 1, 2010

Your Staggeringly Unfair Marketing Advantage

November 17, 2010

How to Get Some Action

November 10, 2010

The Foundation of All Marketing that Works

November 3, 2010

Introducing Copyblogger Radio

May 30, 2014

How Freaks and Misfits Can Succeed in Business: A Conversation with Chris Brogan

Do you refuse to settle? Do you want to do things your way? Do you have a different way of looking at the world? And, most importantly, are you looking for a way to make your weirdness an asset?

If you answered “Yes” to any of the four questions above, then I’ve got a great book recommendation for you.

And the author of said book (you know him well) is this week’s guest on The Lede:

Chris Brogan — New York Times best-seller and the founder of Owner Magazine.

In this episode, Chris and I discuss the following, all of which are central themes in his new book The Freaks Shall Inherit The Earth:

  • Who is a “freak”?
  • Why are some freaks successful while others struggle?
  • What are some practical ways we can add more discipline to our daily lives?
  • What must a freak absolutely, positively master to succeed?
  • What is on Chris’ list of things to not do?
  • What is the difference between fitting in and belonging?
  • Why do so many of us not do the things we already know we should be doing?
  • How do you take the first step (and keep going)?
  • What action does Chris want users to take after they finish the book?

And that one time Chris and Brian Clark went rogue during a panel presentation — and the important lesson Chris learned from Brian (even if it took Chris many years to actually act on the advice).

Listen to Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing below ...

How Freaks and Misfits Can Succeed in Business: A Conversation with Chris BroganJerod Morris
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React to The Lede …

As always, we appreciate your reaction to episodes of The Lede and feedback about how we’re doing.

Send me a tweet with your thoughts anytime: @JerodMorris.

And please tell us the most important point you took away from this latest episode. Do so by joining the discussion over at Google-Plus.

The Show Notes

  • The Freaks Shall Inherit The Earth: Entrepreneurship for Weirdoes, Misfits, and World Dominators — by Chris Brogan
  • ChrisBrogan.com
  • @ChrisBrogan
  • Trust Agents: Using the Web to Build Influence, Improve Reputation, and Earn Trust — by Chris Brogan and Julien Smith
  • Social Media 101 — by Chris Brogan
  • Google-Plus for Business (free webinar and book) — by Chris Brogan
  • The Impact Equation: Are You Making Things Happen or Just Making Noise? — by Chris Brogan and Julien Smith

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The Transcript

Please note that this transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and grammar.

The Lede Podcast: How Freaks and Misfits Can Succeed in Business

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Lede, a podcast about content marketing by Copyblogger Media. I’m your host, Jerod Morris.

Are you a freak? By that I mean, do you have a different way of looking at the world? Do you want to do things your way? Are you not a fan of settling or compromise? Yeah? And are you looking for a way to make your weirdness an asset? Then I’ve got a great book recommendation for you.

It’s the new one by Chris Brogan, entitled “The Freaks Shall Inherit The Earth: Entrepreneurship for Weirdoes, Misfits, and World Dominators.” I ordered this book the day that it came out, I read it, and I got a lot out of it. So I asked Chris to come be a guest on The Lede, and he graciously agreed.

In this episode of The Lede, I will play for you my interview with Chris, in which we talk about a number of subjects including why some freaks are successful and others struggle, the difference between fitting in and belonging, and much, much more. It’s really an action-packed 15 minutes.

Oh, and that one time he and Brian Clark went rogue during panel discussions.

Interview with Chris Brogan

Jerod Morris: Are you someone who really wants to blend in and be part of the background, or do you secretly have a wild side and are awaiting the battle cry? This is the question posed in the intro of the new book “The Freaks Shall Inherit the Earth” written by a long-time friend of Copyblogger, Chris Brogan, who joins me on this episode of The Lede.

Chris, welcome to the show. How’s the book release going?

Chris Brogan: It’s fun. I’m enjoying it. I just found out the day that we were recording this that we signed global rights for China, so that’s kind of fun.

Jerod: Wow! Congratulations.

Chris: Thanks.

Jerod: Now, have you had books translated in China before?

Chris: I have. I’m very lucky that people were kind enough to buy Trust Agents in China and Korea, and a few other countries that were kind of fun and interesting. And then strangely, Social Media 101 and Google Plus for Business, my very-specifically-about-social-media books, were translated everywhere. My books that are about business usually don’t get as much of an opportunity.

Jerod: Well, very cool. Congratulations on that, and before we jump into some of the themes of the book, where’s the best place for people to get their hands on a copy?

Chris: Just go to callingallfreaks.com. That’s probably the easiest way to do it.

Who is a “freak”?

Jerod: All right. So let’s talk about a few themes, and it seems like the first thing we should do is define this book’s audience. So who are the freaks that you’re speaking to in this book?

Chris: These are people who want to take some kind of ownership of their life. They’re the people who have almost a tattoo-level passion about something in their business or whatever, that they’re just into this thing.

Sometimes they’re the employee-preneur, they’re the CEO of their own cubicle. Other times they run their own company. And it’s just the kind of people that really want to do the kind of work they want to do with the people that they want to do it, and in the way that they want to do it. That’s who I think a freak is.

What are some freaks successful and others not?

Jerod: I really enjoyed the book, so I definitely urge people to go read it. I really liked it. My favorite chapter was number 2, which is “The Wild Colors and the Solid Spine,” which is a great chapter title, by the way. And this is the chapter where you explain why some freaks are successful, and why some others are not. What keeps a lot of freaks from achieving their goals?

Chris: I have to tell you. So first off, it’s funny because I had to change the subtitle of that chapter because I had said something about what makes some freaks successful, and other freaks live in their mom’s basement, or beggars …

Jerod: (Laughs)

Chris: … or something like that. And my girlfriend Jacqueline said, “You know, that’s not really polite.”

Jerod: So you changed it to “strugglers.”

Chris: Strugglers, because maybe you’re a late bloomer or something. And it’s funny. First off is that a lot of times people are kind of cuckoo but don’t realize that it has to have some kind of end value, and that’s one of the first mistakes that some freaks are having trouble with.

There’s a difference between someone who’s a freak about, I don’t know, collecting pens. There could possibly be a business somewhere in there if you’re the kind of person who really loves pens and wants to help other people find the right pen for the job, or something. It’s a little less likely if you collect toenails. So you know, you’ve kind of got to find that. So there’s sort of a — do you know something, or are you into something that someone else might possibly be into, and if so, is it the kind of thing where they might somewhere along the way pay you for it.

And then along the way, there are all these missing ingredients that cause us not to do what we’re doing. Discipline. We worry about fear. There are all kinds of challenges with people saying that they don’t know what to do, so that they don’t know where to go next. There are a lot of things that get in the way, and so I just tried to knock as many of those down as I could.

What are some practical ways we can add more discipline to our daily lives?

Jerod: And you mention discipline, and I’m glad you mentioned that, because that was the section of this chapter that I liked the most, probably just because it’s been something I’ve been working on myself. So I wanted to tell you, one of your tips — you have that six-step framework for building discipline — it’s start and keep a streak going. I’m proud to say I’ve mostly succeeded doing that. I’ve been posting something I’m grateful for every day since I read that section with the hashtag “freak streak” on Google Plus, and I’m up to 25 now.

Chris: Wow!

Jerod: So thank you for inspiring that. I think it really does help. Can you explain that really quickly — why that’s important? Just to kind of start a streak and commit to it, and how that can help you kind of get that framework for discipline?

Chris: Well, discipline, if there was sort of a small, little piece of a formula for it, it would sort of be “experience + training + time” or something like that. It’s one of these deals where as you learn some stuff and you train yourself to learn how to do it a little bit better over time.

The plus time part of it, keeping a streak going, a lot of times somebody will say to me, “I’m really crappy at public speaking,” and I’ll be like, “Well, how often have you been on a stage?” And they’ll be like, “Twice, and both times were horrible.” And I was like, “Well, how many other things in your life have you done only twice that you were really damn good at?” You know?

Everything that we do in life that we’re pretty good at, we’ve done a bunch of times, whether or not there’s practice of some kind in between. I mean, Yo-Yo Ma, quite famously — somebody said, “You still practice four hours a day? Why do you practice four hours a day? You’re Yo-Yo Ma.” And he said, “I’m Yo-Yo Ma because I practice four hours a day.” And so to me, that’s the deal. Keep something going. And if it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing daily.

What must a freak absolutely, positively master to succeed?

Jerod: And part of the problem, I think, people have with that is finding the time to do it. And so another quote you have from the book that I loved is:

Let me be clear. You will not inherit the earth, nor will you be successful at most anything, if you can’t figure out and master time.

And you go on to provide some really great, essential time-mastery hacks. Which ones help you the most in your daily life?

Chris: Oh yeah. First off, there are a couple of things.

I’ll tell you one of the first things I always tell people that always blows their mind, is I only schedule my days 40 percent full. And people are always mind-blown by this. “What? I mean, we’re all so busy!” And I always say, “You don’t run your car at 100 percent all the time. You don’t run your computer at 100 percent. There’s no other system that you run in your life at 100 percent. So why would you run your day at 100 percent? That means one sick kid ruins everything. It crashes down. You forget your passport, so you’ve got to go back to your house before you go to the airport. I mean, if you don’t have the time to do these kinds of things, this is why you make many more mistakes.

So another thing that people do is they waste their time. It’s really funny. We treat money as if it’s super-precious and we hoard it when we shouldn’t, and we treat time as if it’s absolutely something we’ve got an endless supply of and we waste it, when we don’t have that kind of time.

So to me, I have a huge list of things I don’t do. I have a huge list of things–I mean, even this podcast. You said, “Hey, I want to interview you for the thing,” and I said, “Great, if you do it briefly.” That was the first thing I said. I’m protecting my time here. So I think those things are important.

I think always having some kind of a plan. Any time you go into anything without a plan it stinks, and it’s not to say that you need to be sort of anal-retentive the whole of your life. But even going to the beach. If you have a small, little checklist it’s going to save you from the “Oh yeah, I forgot sunscreen,” moment. So I think that there are just a lot of opportunities to do a lot more with time.

Jerod: It’s a good thing you said that, too, because I had about two hours’ worth of questions I could have asked.

Chris: Well, sure! That’s the thing. I listen to a lot of podcasts which feel like they seem to have all the time in the world, and I feel like we don’t even have all the time to listen in the world. How do we have all the time to do these interviews?

Jerod: No, it’s a great point.

What is the difference between fitting in and belonging?

Jerod: So shifting gears really quickly. Early in the book you talk about the difference between fitting in and belonging, which I thought was really interesting. And it’s an important distinction within this context of “freak.” So what’s the difference between fitting in and belonging?

Chris: To me, the whole thing about fitting in versus belonging is all about this whole sense of shaving off your unique edges and hiding what makes you who you are. That’s what fitting in means.

  • Fitting in means “stop doing those things that make you kind of a weirdo.”
  • Belonging is when you find the weirdoes who totally get what you’re into.

If I head out to a group of people and I say something about Burpees: “Everyone loves them!” … Cross-fitters and Spartan race people all totally get that joke, because Burpees are evil. And if I make a joke about “roll your wendy-20 save against stupidity,” the Dungeons and Dragons kids know what I’m talking about. And we love that moment. We love that moment when we’re kind of amongst people who know what we’re doing.

Somebody recently was having trouble with their iPhone, and they just pulled the iPhone out of their pocket, turned it to one edge, and blew on it like they were trying to blow the dust out of the video game cartridge from the old 1980s video games, and I was like, “Wow.” He was like, “My people here.” And so it’s in those moments when we find people that we belong. That’s who we really want to do business with.

So what I really have deeply in my heart is that there’s just a whole other way to look at everything that we’re not doing right now, which is very much that we’re worrying too much about fitting in, and we’re not worrying enough about belonging with the people we want.

Why do so many of us not do the things we already know we should be doing?

Jerod: Another great quote of yours that I like because I think it’s so practical is, “You’ll find that a lot of what I preach comes off as common sense, yet what’s most magical about it is that so few people practice these skills.” Which really echoes some advice that Darren Rowse gave at Authority Intensive recently, when he essentially said that he doesn’t have any secrets to share, but it’s that success was more about doing the things we already knew we should be doing. Which sounds so simple, but why do so many folks seem to struggle with that?

Chris: First off, we’re addicted to distraction. We love thinking “Maybe someone else knows a better way to do this, and I should learn that, because I’m probably not smart enough to do it.” That’s a huge one.

Another is that we quite often have this feeling that we’re not good enough. That’s one for sure.

And another is just that we get lazy, and we’re complacent. We think, “Oh yeah, this is good enough for right now,” and we love “good enough.”

“The enemy of the great is the good,” is one of those old quotes that’s totally and utterly true. But what I find is that the things that I do daily, and the things that I do work on that are the least sexy things that I do, are what are yielding the most results. And that the more I do those things, the more I’m seeing a great result from them. And I’m getting into it.

The things that turn me on the most, kind of my new personal porn, are things that everyone else has done and dismissed years ago. I love e-mail marketing more than any other tool. I love Evernote and adding tags to things in Evernote that I’m actually going to refer to, as opposed to these people who just store stuff like chipmunks with big mouths.

How do you take the first step (and keep going)?

Jerod: Now, you mentioned something interesting. You said one reason why people don’t do what they already know they should be doing is they don’t feel like they’re good enough. And maybe that kind of goes along with this idea of “freaks” and feeling like maybe you don’t fit in. Having to find that belonging. How does someone who feels like that who isn’t quite sure, but thinks differently, how do they take that first step to start doing those things? How do they start to believe that they are good enough?

Chris: One of them is to start thinking about where you feel most comfortable with people, and where can you see yourself letting go of some of your fear. That’s a huge thing to think about. Where do you feel that when you talk to the people, you can actually exhale as well as talk? That’s maybe a good starting point.

And from there, what can you do to be part of that community in a way that you can actually serve them? I actually got that advice from Brian Clark.

He and I were on the stage. We were in this horrible panel. I shouldn’t be mean to people. But the person interviewing us was not especially good. She didn’t know us very well. She didn’t have any real questions of any great value. So we just decided to turn the answers. Everything she said, we just turned the answers into what we felt like talking to each other about.

And one of the things Brian said was, “I see, ” pointing to me, “I see you kind of running all over the place, chasing every fly ball that’s out in front of you,” and at that time in my life the opportunities were coming at me faster than I could handle. And he said, “You know how I parse these? I just think, “Which one of these is the best for my community? Which one of these will give me the best opportunity to help the people that have given me their attention?” And I thought, “Wow! That’s a great sorting hat.”

And then I proceeded to not do that for five years, because every bit of advice Brian gives me, it takes five years to actually execute. But I always do it.

The other thing too is if you’re starving, it’s not the right time to start thinking about what kind of garden to plant. You have to eat first. And so I always say to people, “Seeds are for planting, and sometimes for eating.” And if you’re in the “starving” mode, that’s not when to make these decisions. At that point, just eat. Go get a job. Go do something. Go get some cash. Then figure out where you want to be when you grow up.

And that’s kind of where it gets trickier. I tell people all the time, Take small bites. Try not to let your failures mess other people, but just get into failure. And the more you can get into failure, the more you can learn from it, and start to reset and build better stuff.”

What action does Chris want users to take after they finish the book?

Jerod: Wow. That’s great advice, Chris. My final question for you. This time has gone so fast.

Chris: Wow, Jerod!

Jerod: So the final section of the book is called “Take Action! Fight Crime! Save the World!” Complete with exclamation points, which I love. And that first phrase is really the crux of the section. Take action. What action do you want people to take after they finish your book?

Chris: I laid it right out. This is a frustration Julian Smith and I have had since the first book. We wrote “Trust Agents” together, and we wrote also “Impact Equation” together, and we’ve both written books since. And here’s what happens. You can see because of Twitter.

I’ll see somebody and they’ll say, “I just finished Trust Agents,” now reading “Crush It.” “Just finished “Crush It,” now on to this.” They read books as if it’s bingo. And they’re not saying, “Now taking an action based on the book.”

So for years all the books that Julian and I have ever written, in any form or fashion except for my book of poetry, all have instruction in them. And so in this case, I went even crazier and said, “I’m going to make a chapter like, ‘do this damn stuff!'” and it kind of recounts what’s in the rest of the book.

But I want people to declare that they’re a freak. I want people to define what makes them successful. I want people to figure out some skills that are going to help them get there, and figure out the framework that goes in it. And then there are just all the other steps of what it takes to do the book.

And I think that really, the next to last thing in there is, I tell people, “be ready for the bad times,” because that’s the other thing that screws up everybody’s attempt to be a freak. They somehow forget that maybe there’s going to be a bad moment, and they somehow cash it all in when that bad moment hits.

Jerod: Excellent advice, Chris. I really, really did enjoy the book. Thank you for writing it, and I encourage everybody to get it. Thanks for your time, and sharing some of your thoughts with us on The Lede.

Chris: My utter pleasure, Jerod. Thank you.

Jerod: All right. I will talk to you soon, Chris.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Lede, and my thanks again to Chris Brogan for taking the time to join me. Once again, if you are enjoying these episodes, if you’re getting a lot out of them, we sure would appreciate a rating or a review on ITunes. Tweet about us, e-mail the show to a friend. We would appreciate any way that you can help us spread the word. And don’t forget, if you like Stitcher, you can now subscribe to The Lede on Stitcher. Just go to copyblogger.com/stitcher, and you can add us to your playlist.

All right. We’ll be back next week with another episode. Until then. Talk to you soon, everybody.

# # #

*Credits: Both the intro (“Bridge to Nowhere” by Sam Roberts Band) and outro songs (“Down in the Valley” by The Head and the Heart) are graciously provided by express written consent from the rights owners.

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