Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You ByWP Engine

Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting.

Start getting more from your site today!

Rainmaker.FM

The Digital Commerce and Content Marketing Podcast Network

  • Home
  • Shows
  • Hosts
  • About
  • Home
  • Shows
  • Hosts
  • About
  • Member Area
  • Log In
Menu
  • Log In
  • Free Training
7-Figure Small with Brian Clark
Confessions of a Pink-Haired Marketer
Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing
Get More Clients With Smarter Email Marketing
Hack the Entrepreneur
Members Only
Rainmaker.FM Elsewhere
Site Success: Tips for Building Better WordPress Websites
StudioPress FM
Technology Translated
The Digital Entrepreneur
The Missing Link
The Showrunner
The Writer Files: Writing, Productivity, Creativity, and Neuroscience
Youpreneur with Chris Ducker
Zero to Book
Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing
hosted by Darrell Vesterfelt and Tim Stoddart

The 2 Reasons People Don’t Click on Your Buttons … And How to Overcome Them

  • Social:
  • Link:
  • Embed:
https://www.copyblogger.com/cdn-origin/audio/lede-joanna-wiebe.mp3
Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes
Previous Episode:Chase Customers, Not Clicks More Episodes Next Episode:How Freaks and Misfits Can Succeed in Business: A Conversation with Chris Brogan

All Episodes:

March 30, 2020

The Advantage of Email Marketing, Featuring Nathan Barry of ConvertKit

March 15, 2020

How to Write Content That Resonates

March 9, 2020

How to Conquer Your Fear of Selling, with Leah Neaderthal

March 2, 2020

How to Build Remarkable Products to Grow Your Business, with Ramit Sethi

February 17, 2020

What You Should Talk about on Your Podcast, with Tara McMullin

February 9, 2020

How to Win at Search in 2020

February 3, 2020

How to Turn Pro as a Freelance Writer

January 27, 2020

Marketing Segmentation and Personalization with Brennan Dunn of RightMessage

January 20, 2020

Podcasting Still Matters, with Pat Flynn from Smart Passive Income

January 13, 2020

The New Look Copyblogger in 2020

January 8, 2020

New Year, New Copyblogger

October 23, 2019

The Self-Reliant Entrepreneur with John Jantsch

October 2, 2019

Consistency Will Take You Further

September 25, 2019

The Past, Present, and Future of Online Learning

September 16, 2019

How to Get More of the Right Things Done

September 9, 2019

Why the Future Is Still Email

September 3, 2019

What’s Next for
Copyblogger Media?

August 26, 2019

How Smart, Nimble Companies Are Using Webinars Today

August 19, 2019

The Clarity Method: A Conversation with Tim Brownson

August 12, 2019

Digital Business Trends and the Latest on the Rainmaker Platform

August 5, 2019

4 ‘Naive’ Business Principles for Enduring Success

July 8, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 3: Polishing and Promotion

July 1, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 2: Getting It Written

June 24, 2019

How to Write an Epic Blog Post, Part 1: Thinking and Research

June 17, 2019

3 Almost Magical Headline Ingredients for More Traffic, Engagement, and Shares

June 10, 2019

Lessons Any Business Can Learn from an Impressive Influencer Marketing Fail

June 3, 2019

13 Ways of Looking at a Headline

May 27, 2019

The 7 ‘Bad’ Habits of Incredibly Successful People

May 20, 2019

Writers: How to Move from Making a Living to Driving Revenue

May 13, 2019

Choose the Right Frame to Boost the Power of Your Content

May 6, 2019

How Copywriting Teacher Belinda Weaver Reenergized Her Email List for Massive Engagement

April 29, 2019

3 Reasons Why Really Good Writers Sometimes Can’t Find Great Clients

April 22, 2019

3 Slightly Embarrassing Emotions that Drive Effective Copywriting

April 15, 2019

Get 10 Content Marketing Boosters in 20 Minutes

April 8, 2019

Becoming the ‘Chief Empathy Officer’ of Your Copy and Content

April 1, 2019

One of the Most Important Marketing Decisions You’ll Ever Make

March 18, 2019

What Nobody Wants to Hear about Content Marketing

March 11, 2019

Getting Your Big, Scary Projects Finished: A Conversation about Growing Gills

March 4, 2019

When Is It Time to Bring in a Professional Copywriter?

February 25, 2019

Using Content to Systematically Move Prospects Toward a Purchase

February 18, 2019

Understanding the Lifecycles of Your Website, with Pamela Wilson

February 11, 2019

5 Ways to Manage a Stress-Induced Creative Slump

February 4, 2019

3 Ways Strategic Content Can Drive Measurable Business Outcomes

January 28, 2019

The Social Media Platform Every Content Creator Should Be Using in 2019 (Nope, It’s Not Facebook)

January 21, 2019

Real Talk about Generating High-Quality Content

January 14, 2019

A Conversation with Paul Jarvis about Staying a ‘Company of One’

October 29, 2018

The 3 Plus 1 Foundational Elements of Effective Persuasion

October 22, 2018

5 Essential Copywriting Techniques from Copyblogger

October 15, 2018

5 Ways to Recover Your Professional and Creative Confidence

October 8, 2018

5 Stinky Sardine Secrets to Make Your Content More Fascinating

September 24, 2018

The Mindset ‘Hack’ that Frees Your Creativity and Makes You Happier

September 18, 2018

How to Kill Your Sales and Mess up Your Business: Lessons from a Used Car Salesman

September 4, 2018

The 7 Things Writers Need to Make a (Good) Living

August 27, 2018

Are You Making These Social Media Marketing Mistakes?

August 20, 2018

Fix These 7 About Page Mistakes for More Traffic and (Possibly) Better SEO

August 13, 2018

7 Ways to Boost Your Creativity

August 6, 2018

A 10-Step ‘Checklist’ for Your Content Marketing Site

July 30, 2018

The 3 Keys to Publishing Strong Content … Even If You Aren’t a ‘Great’ Writer (Yet)

July 23, 2018

Fix These 3 Points of Failure to Get Better Results for Your Content

July 16, 2018

Big Changes at ConvertKit: A Discussion with Founder Nathan Barry

July 9, 2018

3 Skills to Master to Become a Marketing Badass this Year

June 18, 2018

The Quiet Power of Conversational Copy

June 11, 2018

5 Rules of Thumb to Relieve SEO-Induced Stress

June 4, 2018

How to Use the GDPR to Make Your Business Stronger than Ever

May 14, 2018

‘Good Karma’ Selling that Works: A Conversation with Tim Paige

April 30, 2018

How to Get More Comfortable (and Effective) at Selling

April 23, 2018

Privacy and Permission in the Wake of Cambridge Analytica

April 16, 2018

Seth Godin and How to Create Change

April 9, 2018

Email? Chatbots? Social? How Are We Supposed to Reach People?

March 26, 2018

The Double-Edged Sword that Can Make (or Break) Your Content

March 19, 2018

Make More Progress by Getting (Gently) Out of Your Comfort Zone

March 12, 2018

Are You Doing Content Marketing Wrong?

March 5, 2018

Storytelling for Modern Content Marketing (Part 2 of 2)

February 26, 2018

Storytelling for Modern Content Marketing (Part 1 of 2)

February 19, 2018

10 Quality Factors Search Engines Need to See on Your Site

February 12, 2018

A Simple Content Strategy to Make Your Site Massively More Useful

February 5, 2018

How to Avoid a Heartbreaking Business Failure

January 29, 2018

Hey Writers: Let’s Get You Paid What You’re Worth

January 15, 2018

5 Keys to Making Your Content More Shareable

December 18, 2017

3 Observations on Trends (but not Predictions) for 2018

December 11, 2017

3 Tips Now to Build a Strong Foundation in 2018

December 4, 2017

The 3 Success Factors that Help Writers Earn a Great Living

November 27, 2017

How to Recognize a Great Content Idea

November 20, 2017

How to Cultivate a More Meaningful Gratitude Practice

November 13, 2017

Advice for Poets, Advice for Killers

October 30, 2017

Face Your Business Fears on Halloween Week

October 23, 2017

How to Make Smarter Decisions about Your Website

October 2, 2017

A Series of Unfortunate Content Events

September 18, 2017

The Evolution of a Successful Copywriter

August 28, 2017

7 Ways to Improve Your Marketing by Harnessing the Power of Evil

August 14, 2017

Smart Questions from our Brilliant Audience

August 7, 2017

Does the Web Have Enough Patience for Your In-Depth Content?

July 31, 2017

How to Write (Much Better) Blog Comments

July 17, 2017

Which Works Better: Positive or Negative Content?

July 10, 2017

How to Attract the Exact Customers You Want

July 3, 2017

How to Create Stability and Success as an Artist

June 19, 2017

Two Powerful Resources for Life-Changing Growth

June 12, 2017

How to Turn All that Marketing Advice into Action

June 5, 2017

How to Develop a Compelling Marketing Idea in 4 Steps

May 30, 2017

Getting Over the Fear of Selling

May 22, 2017

Talking Community and Digital Business with Tara Gentile

May 15, 2017

Plagiarism, Self-Deception, Bad Sandwiches, and Other Interesting Disasters

May 1, 2017

Professional Writers: Find Out How to Get Certified by Copyblogger

April 17, 2017

The Painful Core Lesson Taught by 3 Astonishing Big-Brand Fails

April 3, 2017

5 Mindset Habits that Actually Work

March 27, 2017

On Grammar, Usage, and Not Being a Great Big Jerk

March 20, 2017

Creative Strategies for Content Writers

March 13, 2017

A New Ultra-Easy Resource for Creating Excellent WordPress Sites

February 20, 2017

Thriving Freelancers and Clients from Hell

February 13, 2017

Politics, Content Marketing, and the 2017 Super Bowl Ads

February 6, 2017

Copyblogger Book Club: Winning the Story Wars

January 23, 2017

3 Content Marketing Strategy Fails (and How to Fix Them)

January 9, 2017

The 2017 Content Excellence Challenge: Your January Assignments

December 19, 2016

Bad Writing Advice: The ‘Post Truth’ Episode

December 12, 2016

Get Ready Now for a Creative and Productive 2017

December 5, 2016

The 4 Pillars Every Online Business Is Built On

November 28, 2016

Orbit Media’s Latest Survey of 1000 Bloggers

November 14, 2016

Have You Already Missed the Podcasting Gold Rush?

November 7, 2016

Getting More Traffic, Links, and Shares to Your Content

October 31, 2016

5 Quick Wins for Content Marketers

October 24, 2016

Announcing: An Intriguing New Tool for Collaborative Content

October 17, 2016

A New Book to Make Content Marketing Easier

October 10, 2016

Behind the Scenes at Copyblogger: Our New Email Approach

October 3, 2016

The ‘Obligatory’ Structure of Effective Content

September 26, 2016

7 Powerful Content Strategies Borrowed from Advertising Masters

September 15, 2016

How to Handle Demographic and Psychographic Segmentation (without Looking Like an Idiot)

September 8, 2016

Ethics, Professionalism, and Good Manners for Content Marketers

September 1, 2016

3 Questions that Can Haunt Creative Professionals

August 25, 2016

How to Give and Get Exceptional Testimonials, Part Two

August 18, 2016

How to Give and Get Exceptional Testimonials, Part One

August 11, 2016

Are You Leaving Money on the Table with Weak Headlines?

August 4, 2016

Content Marketing for Nonprofits

July 28, 2016

The One-Two Punch that Creates the Most Successful Copywriters

July 21, 2016

Pokémon Go: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

July 14, 2016

5 Suggestions When You’re Writing About Controversy

July 7, 2016

Announcing: A Breakthrough Educational Collaboration between Copyblogger and U.C. Davis

June 30, 2016

How to Break Past the #1 Conversion Killer

June 23, 2016

The New Age of Marketing Automation: Powerful, Simple, Cost-Effective

June 16, 2016

How to Make a (Really Good) Living as a Freelance Writer

June 9, 2016

Self-Publishing, Side Hustles, and Doing It All: A Conversation with Linda Formichelli

June 2, 2016

A Process for Content Marketing Success

May 26, 2016

Content Marketing Best Practices: Getting Email Opt-Ins

May 19, 2016

Behind the Scenes: Adventures in Advertising

May 12, 2016

Trump, Apple, and Facebook Advertising: Content Marketing News for May, 2016

May 5, 2016

Sally Hogshead and the Art of Fascination

April 28, 2016

Behind the Scenes at the Rainmaker Digital Company Meeting!

April 14, 2016

Social Media News, Social Media Constants

April 7, 2016

Strategies for B2B Podcasting, with Clark Buckner

March 31, 2016

Content Marketing Success Stories: Fitness Powerhouse Examine.com

March 24, 2016

Behind the Scenes: An Inside Look at the Rainmaker FM Redesign

March 17, 2016

Our Latest Advice and Resources for Digital Business Owners

March 10, 2016

Should Content Publishers Adopt Google’s New AMP?

March 3, 2016

7 Ways to Get Smarter with Social Media Listening

February 25, 2016

Content Marketing Shout-Out: Orbit Media and Andy Crestodina

February 18, 2016

The Tactic You Should Steal from Copyblogger

February 11, 2016

Content Marketing News for February, 2016

February 4, 2016

Email Marketing: The Misunderstood Powerhouse

January 28, 2016

The Secret Weapon Behind Great Websites: The Role of the Content Editor

January 21, 2016

Behind the Scenes: The Relaunch and Re-Imagining of Copyblogger.com

January 14, 2016

Trends and Predictions for Digital Commerce: A Conversation with Brian Clark

January 7, 2016

2016 Content Marketing Resolutions

December 28, 2015

The End of The Lede, The Beginning of Copyblogger FM

November 10, 2015

Constraints Can Be Blessings (Plus 2 Other Essential Lessons Jerod Re-Learned This Week)

November 3, 2015

Long or Short? The Content Length Question Answered, Once and For All

October 27, 2015

The Simple Publishing Hack That Gives Old Content New Life (Plus 3 More Tips)

October 20, 2015

The Surprising Truth about Earning a Profit from Your Content

October 13, 2015

How to Move Your Audience From Infatuation to Love

October 6, 2015

3 Things Your Audience Wants You to Know about Useful Content

September 29, 2015

Revisiting Authenticity: What It Is, What It’s Not, and Why It Matters

September 22, 2015

Publishing Lessons from Dave Pell, the Most Fascinating Email Newsletter Writer in the Business

September 15, 2015

Why Content Creators Should Kiss Their Programmers

September 8, 2015

Finally — A Podcast about the Superiority of Written Content

September 1, 2015

Hot Seat: Grilling Jerod on Using Audio Content to Seed a Content Arsenal

August 25, 2015

How to Optimize Your Headlines for Content Discovery with Vinegar (Before You Die of Cholera)

August 18, 2015

5 Stories That Explain Jerod Morris (Plus One Massive Marketing Lesson)

August 11, 2015

Lede Potpourri: A Big Idea, Talking About Demian Behind His Back, and Lessons from #PM15

August 4, 2015

How to Attend an Industry Conference Like a Boss

July 28, 2015

Getting the Most Out of a Conference When You’re There to Promote, Part 1

July 21, 2015

How Much Does the Modern Content Marketer Need to Know About SEO?

July 14, 2015

Are Podcasters Digitally Sharecropping Without Realizing It?

July 7, 2015

Celebrating Our 101st Episode (with a Special Guest Interviewer)

June 30, 2015

Why The Phrase ‘Leaders Are Readers’ Should Die

June 23, 2015

Why You Should Think Outside the Box About Online Courses

June 16, 2015

The Proper (and Safe) Way to Republish Old Articles

June 9, 2015

How to Grow an Audience on LinkedIn by Repurposing Content

June 2, 2015

Key Takeaways from Three-and-a-Half Hours with Henry Rollins

May 27, 2015

Rapid-Fire Takeaways from Authority Rainmaker

May 19, 2015

The Proper Way to Grow an Audience on Medium

May 12, 2015

The Introvert’s Guide to Launching a Successful Podcast

May 5, 2015

The One Quality All Popular Podcasts Share

April 28, 2015

Proof That Grit Is the Only Way to Reach Your Potential

April 21, 2015

Do We Celebrate Failure Too Much?

April 14, 2015

Choose Yourself Part 2: James Altucher Fights Back

April 7, 2015

Should We Fear Content Shock? (Or Could It Actually Be a Good Thing?)

March 31, 2015

Should You Really ‘Walk in the Direction of Your Fear’?

March 24, 2015

Is ‘Choose Yourself’ Good Advice … or New-Age Phooey?

March 17, 2015

Is Authority Earned or Bestowed?

March 3, 2015

Dan Pink on How to Succeed in the New Era of Selling

February 24, 2015

Here’s How to Answer the Most Important Question in Life (and Make a Living from It)

February 17, 2015

Sally Hogshead on How You Can Unlock Your Natural Ability to Fascinate

February 10, 2015

How to Learn from Your Successes

January 27, 2015

How to Learn From Your Mistakes

January 13, 2015

Lessons Learned from Conducting Two Monster Audience Surveys

December 16, 2014

Adaptive Content: A Trend to Pay Attention to in 2015

December 2, 2014

The Most Important Lessons You Should Have Learned in 2014

November 18, 2014

How We Built Our Careers Online (And What You Can Learn From It)

November 4, 2014

Interview with Brian Clark: How Customer Experience Maps Help You Develop a Smarter Content Strategy

October 21, 2014

How Empathy Maps Help You Speak Directly to the Hearts of Your Audience

October 7, 2014

How to Ignite a Feeling in Your Audience

September 23, 2014

Are You Overlooking This Cornerstone of a Smart Content Strategy?

June 26, 2014

How to Curate Knowledge, Turn it Into Wisdom, and Build Your Audience

June 19, 2014

How Successful Writers Curate Ideas

June 13, 2014

The 5 W’s of Link Curation

June 6, 2014

Why You Should Curate Content (And How to Do It Right)

May 30, 2014

How Freaks and Misfits Can Succeed in Business: A Conversation with Chris Brogan

May 23, 2014

The 2 Reasons People Don’t Click on Your Buttons … And How to Overcome Them

May 16, 2014

Chase Customers, Not Clicks

May 9, 2014

How to Be Authentic

May 2, 2014

How to Close With Style

April 25, 2014

The Best of Seth Godin on Copyblogger

April 17, 2014

How to Choose Arresting Images for Your Blog Posts (And Why You Should)

April 11, 2014

Removing Blog Comments: The View So Far

April 4, 2014

How to Use Internal Cliffhangers

March 28, 2014

Hangout Hot Seat with Brian Clark

March 21, 2014

How to Tell a Seductive Story

March 14, 2014

How to Create Exquisite Subheads

March 7, 2014

How to Write Killer Bullet Points

February 28, 2014

How to Write Damn Good Sentences

February 21, 2014

How to Use Persuasive Words

February 14, 2014

Michael Stelzner on Capturing Emails and Committing to Quality

February 7, 2014

How to Nail Your Opening

January 24, 2014

How to Write a Magnetic Headline (in Under 15 Minutes)

May 18, 2012

Seth Godin on When You Should Start Marketing Your Product, Service, or Idea

May 11, 2012

How to Attract an Audience by Integrating Content, Social, and Search

March 30, 2012

Why You Should Build an Audience Before You Build a Business

March 16, 2012

How Chris Brogan Built His Content Platform

March 9, 2012

Jay Baer on How to Turn Interested Prospects into Lifelong Customers

March 2, 2012

A 30-Minute Copywriting Course from a Master of the Craft

February 24, 2012

The Path to a Legendary Copywriting Career

February 17, 2012

5 Tips for Affiliate Marketing Beginners

February 10, 2012

Why Not Sell Physical Stuff With Digital Media?

February 3, 2012

Whether You Call it Blogging or Not, Online Content Still Rules

January 27, 2012

Answers to the 3 Biggest Email Marketing Questions We Get

January 20, 2012

How to Newsjack Your Way to Free Media Exposure with David Meerman Scott

January 13, 2012

Steven Pressfield and the War of Work

November 18, 2011

The Strategy Behind the Copyblogger Redesign

November 11, 2011

7 Ways to Create an Email Marketing "Snowball Effect"

November 4, 2011

Warning: If You're Not a Privacy Nut, You're Losing Sales

October 28, 2011

The 3 Kinds of Writing That Builds a Business

October 21, 2011

The Art of Seductive Writing: A Conversation with Robert Greene

October 7, 2011

Why Content Marketing Doesn't Suck

September 30, 2011

Are You Weird Enough to Succeed at Content Marketing?

September 23, 2011

What Works With SEO Right Now and Why No One Does What You Want

September 16, 2011

Are You Flushing Your Marketing Down the Social Media Toilet?

September 11, 2011

Seth Godin on Blogging, Business Books, and Creating Content that Matters

September 2, 2011

The Return of Copyblogger Radio …

June 10, 2011

Answered: Your Most Burning Content Marketing Questions

June 3, 2011

How to Get All the Clients and Customers You Can Handle

May 20, 2011

Is Content Marketing Worth the Work?

May 13, 2011

How to Write Nearly Undeletable Emails

May 6, 2011

Is the Online Gold Rush Over?

April 22, 2011

The Art of Enchanting Online Marketing with Guy Kawasaki

April 15, 2011

The Market for Something to Believe in is Infinite: An Interview with Hugh MacLeod

April 8, 2011

How to Constantly Create Compelling Content

March 25, 2011

The Content Marketing Question You Need to Answer … Now

March 18, 2011

Good SEO is Simple. Really.

March 4, 2011

Did Social Media Kill the Marketing Star?

February 25, 2011

How to Write (and Execute) a Simple but Powerful Business Plan

February 17, 2011

How to Kick Groupon to the Curb and Become a Local Hero

February 3, 2011

Convert … Or Die

January 27, 2011

Attention: Is Your Headline Getting Any?

January 20, 2011

How to Craft Landing Pages that Work

January 13, 2011

Why Every Smart Business is in the Media Business

January 5, 2011

2011 Content Marketing Predictions

December 15, 2010

Tim Ferriss on How to Reinvent Yourself with Blog Marketing

December 8, 2010

The 6 Elements of an Influential Web Experience

December 1, 2010

Your Staggeringly Unfair Marketing Advantage

November 17, 2010

How to Get Some Action

November 10, 2010

The Foundation of All Marketing that Works

November 3, 2010

Introducing Copyblogger Radio

May 23, 2014

The 2 Reasons People Don’t Click on Your Buttons … And How to Overcome Them

“Buttons are cute, and they’re charming. You can’t be scared of a button.” These are the words of Joanna Wiebe, whose delightful presentation on buttons at Authority Intensive resonated with data-backed usefulness. And she’s right.

No one is scared of a button. Yet, people choose to not click on your call-to-action buttons all the time. Costing you conversions. Costing you money.

Why?

And what can you do about it?

I invited Joanna, Conversion Copywriter for Copy Hackers, to be the guest on this week’s episode of The Lede so she can answer these two questions for you …

Because Joanna has the answers and the data to back them up.

In this episode, Joanna and I discuss all of the following and more:

  • How I misspoke right up front — because getting a button clicked is not the same as a conversion (Luckily Joanna has your back and corrected me)
  • Why you need to think of your visitors as non-thinking lizards
  • The impact that choosing a button color outside of the brand palette can have — and, relatedly, if clients ever balk at choosing colors outside their palette (even when they know it works)
  • Why you should think of your buttons as closed doors
  • The most common anxieties that keep people from clicking
  • How to phrase button copy to reduce anxiety (and why “Join” is better than “Sign up”)
  • Why you need to think of “calls to action” as, instead, “calls to value”

And I recommend you scroll through Joanna’s slides from her presentation while you listen. You will find them below, right before the transcript.

Listen to Copyblogger FM: Content Marketing, Copywriting, Freelance Writing, and Social Media Marketing below ...

The 2 Reasons People Don’t Click on Your Buttons … And How to Overcome ThemJerod Morris
  • Social:
  • Link:
  • Embed:
https://www.copyblogger.com/cdn-origin/audio/lede-joanna-wiebe.mp3
Download MP3 Subscribe by RSS Subscribe in iTunes

React to The Lede …

As always, we appreciate your reaction to episodes of The Lede and feedback about how we’re doing.

Send me a tweet with your thoughts anytime: @JerodMorris.

And please tell us the most important point you took away from this latest episode. Do so by joining the discussion over at Google-Plus.

The Show Notes

  • Copyhackers.com — Joanna’s website
  • @CopyHackers — Follow Joanna on Twitter
  • 7 Proven Secrets of High-Converting Checkouts — by Joanna Wiebe
  • 6 Proven Ways to Boost the Conversion Rates of Your Call-to-Action Buttons — by Joanna Wiebe
  • 13 Takeaways From Authority Intensity — by Kerry Jones

Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You ByWP Engine

Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting.

Start getting more from your site today!

The Transcript

Please note that this transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and grammar.

The Lede Podcast: The 2 Reasons People Don’t Click on Your Buttons … And How to Overcome Them

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Lede, a podcast about content marketing by Copyblogger Media. I’m your host, Jerod Morris.

Last week on The Lede I interviewed Tom Martin, whose panel presentation at Authority Intensive drew rave reviews. This week my guest is Joanna Wiebe of Copy Hackers, another Authority Intensive presenter who drew nothing but praise and plaudits for her presentation, which was a power hour instructing attendees how to create better buttons.

And if Joanna’s name sounds familiar, it should. She has written two incredibly useful posts about conversion for Copyblogger. Each is linked up in the show notes for you.

Here’s my interview with Joanna. Enjoy, and learn.

There are many reasons why people don’t convert

Jerod: Hey, Joanna. Welcome to The Lede. I’ve got to say it was really a pleasure getting to meet you and listen to you speak at Authority Intensive in Denver. So just thank you for coming on here today and sharing your expertise with our listeners.

Joanna Wiebe: Well, thank you. I had a great time at the Authority Intensive event, and I really liked your talk too. I thought it was fantastic. I loved the stories you told.

Jerod: Well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

But let’s talk about your presentation which, as I mentioned in our intro, was one of the absolute hits of the entire week. And I think it was just because of how you broke it down, and how simple and clear you made this idea of conversion. You told us that there are really two reasons why people don’t convert: friction and anxiety.

So in the 15 or so minutes we have here, let’s break each one of those down and give listeners one or two actual tips they can take with them to reduce friction and help their visitors overcome anxiety. We’ll start with friction.

Joanna: Okay. Can I just start with…

Jerod: Oh yeah, go.

Joanna: Sorry, Jerod. I just wanted to say two reasons why people don’t click your button are friction and anxiety, but there are bigger reasons why people don’t convert. Why people don’t act on the conversion that’s happening in their head is the friction and anxiety at the point of the button. I just wanted to clear that up because people will be like, “there’s way more to conversion than that!”

Jerod: Okay, good. And that’s a great clarification, because you’re right. Your presentation was on buttons specifically.

Joanna: Right. Yeah.

Jerod: And you wrote a great column on buttons as well for Copyblogger, which we will link up in the notes.

Joanna: Cool.

Think of your visitors as non-thinking lizards

Jerod: So when we talk about friction with buttons, apparently to reduce friction we all need to start thinking like lizards?

Joanna: (Giggles) Yes. We need to think of our visitors not as thinking visitors.

When you’re working on the button if you think of a visitor as a visitor, then a human visitor has all sorts of intellectual capacity. They can figure things out. They are very thoughtful and rational. When we use the word “visitor,” they’re not lacking any sort of intelligence. We give people a lot of credit, and we think of a visitor as, often times, ourselves. Human beings. We’re smart. We can figure out what a gray button that says “Submit” is supposed to do. Who can’t figure that out? Visitors can.

But we have to really speak to that lizard brain, that part of our brain that is so old. It’s the thing that’s really keeping us from making mistakes in life and hurting ourselves. It doesn’t react to words. It reacts to a stimulus, and things that will attract it or will repel it.

So that’s really what we’re talking about. When we’re talking about a button, if we can design a button for a lizard brain, which means really “would a lizard look at this? Would it touch this? Would it be scared of this? Would it know to go near this?” That kind of thing. If we can do that instead of thinking of them as thinking, usually intelligent human beings with big, bold, wonderful brains, then we can get closer to designing the button in such a way that it’s more likely to get clicked. It’s more likely that your lizard brain will tell your bigger brain and your actions that “It’s okay, we can move ahead with this button.” Or “hey, I like this button, let’s touch it!” That kind of stuff.

Jerod: So what’s one way, then, one example of a way, that we can make a button that’s going to attract that lizard brain?

Joanna: I gave a couple of examples in the presentation. And one of the obvious ones: People talk a lot about button color text, and people roll their eyes when you talk about them. And I’ve done it too. Early on in my career I definitely did. Because you think a color isn’t persuasive — except in certain cultural situations it can be — but by and large, for most people, the color orange is not more persuasive than the color blue. So why would we do a button color test? What could we possibly learn?

But when you’re designing for a lizard, lizards are attracted to things that are out of place. Things that look like something to look at — like the bright, shiny object kind of thing. So when you’re going to design a button for that lizard …

There was one in particular that I noted in the presentation for Acuity Scheduling, where we ran three variations of a button with the control included there. So there was a control button on a plans and pricing page for a solution called Acuity Scheduling. The control versus variation B, which was a button color that was within the brand colors for Acuity Scheduling, and variation C, which was meant to speak to that lizard brain. And we made that one outside of the brand color, so different from the palette, and that was the point with making it really stand out.

We made it orange. Not because we believe in the big orange button, necessarily, although orange does tend to do quite well. But it does well not because it’s orange, but rather because it’s different from everything around it. It’s something that stands out. And a lizard, your lizard brain, can notice it and not have to think or wade through information to try to find the right button to click.

So we tested variations B and C against the control on the plans and pricing page. There were three buttons on each variation. The plans and pricing page usually has three, four, five columns where you see what’s inside each plan, and then the button, and you try to get people to click the button, obviously, to get them to sign up. So in the control we had three black buttons. In variation B we had a black button, a green button, and another black button, and that was all within the color palette for Acuity Scheduling. Variation C had a black button, an orange button, and a black button.

We saw a pretty good lift. I think it was just over 80 percent on the variation B and the green button, so it was different from just all three black. That’s a good thing. Already the lizard brain can say, “Okay, something’s different here, I’ll look at that.” But when we made it orange we got, I think it was, 94 percent lift.

Jerod: Wow.

Joanna: And that’s click-through lift. Not conversion lift. Click-through on that orange button. And so it beat the green button, and it totally beat the black button.

And really, that’s what it’s about: designing for a brain that isn’t trying to think. It’s just trying to do without doing the wrong thing.

Do clients balk at choosing colors outside their palette?

Jerod: So speaking of friction … do you ever get friction from designers when you suggest, “Hey, let’s choose a color that’s outside of the palette?”

Joanna: You know, there is an increasing number of designers who are focused on conversion. So we see a lot more designers who are soaking it up, “Give me more.” But give them data too, which is what we’re really focused on doing. Because you can’t just say, “Make it different,” and they’re like, “Oh, okay.”

We see a lot of friction when it comes time to talk to a brand manager or a creative director. People who might sometimes not be that open to doing things for conversion purposes if it compromises in some way, or complicates, the brand. Which I guess we see a lot in copywriting too, right? Everybody wants to pitch a long-form sales page to sell something, and good luck getting that by the average brand manager or creative director, right? And so on, and so forth.

Jerod: Yeah. But I assume if you just show them the data, like you just said, “Hey, 94 perent more clicks,” that’s typically enough, right, to get that sort of reaction? I would hope so.

Joanna: Yeah. You’d think, but if you go to acuityscheduling.com — and I wave my finger at them all the time — he hasn’t actually changed the button.

Jerod: Oh my!

Joanna: The button is still in the control. I know. And I’m like, “But you saw the data!”

Jerod: Yeah.

Joanna: It’s there! You saw the test happening! You looked at it! You know it’s all statistically significant, you know there is nothing actually wrong with the data. It’s perfect. It’s saying, “You can get almost twice as many people to sign up or to get started on signing up for your solution if you just change it to orange.” But it’s still black. What? I don’t know.

It’s always going to be — I think it’s a matter of repetition. People listening to this now will be like, “Oh yeah, sure, fine.” But they have to hear it 30 times from 30 different people before they actually do it.

Jerod: Okay. Maybe there is some anxiety there, why they’re not changing that. Which leads us into our next idea here.

Why you should think of your buttons like closed doors

Jerod: We talk about anxiety, and you use the analogy of a button being like a closed door.

So you talked here about how you want your button to stand out. You want to appeal to that lizard brain that is going to be attracted to it, maybe even scared of it, but they see it. And then once they’re there, now you have to reduce that anxiety so that they feel welcome enough, comfortable enough, to open up the door, right?

Joanna: Exactly.

Jerod: How do you do that?

Joanna: It’s really addressing — at the point of clicking to convert — those seemingly minor obstacles that are getting in the way of moving forward.

If you think of a button as a closed door instead, you can start to see … because buttons are cute, and they’re charming, like the word “button.” You can’t be scared of a button. Who would feel anxiety with a button, right? Especially where we can all go around saying, “We all use the web. Everybody is familiar with it: you just click a button when you’re ready to buy. You just click the button.”

But you don’t just click the button, right, or else we wouldn’t see the lift that we do. We would just keep seeing, “Oh, we’re not actually affecting a change. People are having an easy time clicking the button.” But they’re not.

So if we think of it as a closed door, now you can start to put yourself in the position where you’re like, “How do I feel when I’m about to open a closed door?” Especially a closed door in a building that I’m not familiar with. So it’s one thing if it’s your house. You’re likely to just open and close the door unless you know it’s the bathroom, or something like that. But in someone else’s house, or if you’re in a neighborhood, a strange neighborhood, and you’re looking for your friend’s house. You’re looking for a certain door but you don’t know which one is right. You can start to feel a bit of those anxieties, right?

“If I open that door, what’s on the other side? If I go inside will it close behind me and I’ll get lost inside?” I can’t see what’s in there until I actually open the door. Do I care enough about what’s inside to put myself through the potential trauma of opening this door only to find that there’s a lion behind it, or other crazy things that we might — I mean, nobody thinks there’s a lion on the other side of a button or of a closed door. But the bad things that are unknown that generate this fear and risk inside of us, which of course turn the lizard brain off too. Where you’re like, “Okay, forget it. I’m not going, it’s not worth it.”

But if we can anticipate those kinds of small anxieties about opening a door, and do things to knock those anxieties down a bit, just really neutralize and reduce them, then we can get people to open.

So obviously I work a lot with tech startups, like software as a service. So there is a lot of signing up for things online. And when you’re signing up for a free trial, what are the anxieties that a person might feel when they’re about to click? They like your solution, they like everything about it. What are some anxieties that they might feel, though, about moving forward with this so-called free trial:

  • Is it really free?
  • Do I have to put my credit card information in here?
  • How many pages of forms am I going to have to fill out before I can actually start using this thing?
  • Do I have to invite other people to help me start using it somehow?
  • Do I have to sign in with Facebook, only to find out that it’s now been posted to Facebook?

What are some fears that people have? And all you have to really do is build those into the button copy, or position those neutralizer things that counter those fears and anxieties. Position those around the button. We see some pretty good lift when we do that.

How to word button copy to reduce anxiety

Jerod: And you want to use wording that suggests, too, that they have to do less work, right?

Joanna: Yeah.

Jerod: Let me give you an example. And tell me if I did this right. I was creating a button, actually, today for a post that’s going to go out, and it included a call to action button for signing up for Authority. And I had Joanna’s voice whispering in my head….

Joanna: (Laughs)

Jerod: … I did, because when I first wrote the button I said, “Sign up,” meaning “You have to go, you have to do something.” And I changed it to “Join the Authority community” instead. So is that better? Is the second wording better than the first, in your mind? Is that going to reduce anxiety, or do I need to go change it again?

Joanna: I would believe that would perform better in an A/B test, yes. Because the initial one, like you say, there’s a sense of “Will my life get harder once I click this button?” And we want them to believe their life will get better, right?

We’re always trying to sell people a better version of themselves, and that doesn’t stop at the point of your button.

So “sign up.” What does that suggest to people? To me it suggests, “Oh crap, I’ve got work to do.” What does “sign up” mean? Plus there’s that fear of commitment. Am I ready to sign up? I know I like it, but do I love it? Am I actually, seriously into this solution so much that I’m ready to “sign up?” I mean, “sign” is a scary word, right? To sign is like “sign your life away.” We have some anxieties associated with that word.

But “join?” Perhaps there is a little anxiety there if you’re not sure if you want to join. But it’s reducing any anxieties about possibly being alone because you’re joining, of course, that community. So I think that’s a good thing. Does “join” suggest work?

You might want to add a click trigger on there that says “It’s one click to join,” or something to really help people understand that it’s actually not going to make their life harder. It’s going to be really fast and easy. And a lot of people know this in their head, but they don’t put it on the page. You know, “Oh yeah, it’s going to be really easy.” So people will know to join. But if you just add a little click trigger that says what they can expect that will happen next, that can push people a little further.

And if you get another ten sign-ups a day, or people clicking a day, that really starts to build up. Just because you did a little more on the page to kind of neutralize those anxieties.

Jerod: Perfect. I like that. Thank you for the impromptu analysis there.

Joanna: Sure! I hope it helped.

Why you need to think of “calls to action” as “calls to value”

Jerod: So my final question about this idea of anxiety. Kerry Jones of CopyPress actually wrote a really terrific column, “13 Take-Aways From Authority Intensive,” and one of her take-aways was a quote by you, which kind of explains this idea that we’ve just been talking about, which is:

Think of a call to action as a call to value.

Can you just elaborate on that difference, and maybe one way that listeners can put that into effect on their buttons?

Joanna: Sure.

So a call to action is like — you tell people what they should do. What they should act on, and that they should move forward. But not why they should move forward, right? That’s a call to action. A call to value is a reminder of why it is that you want to move forward at all.

People know what a button is, right? They know to click the button to proceed. And that’s not to say that you shouldn’t use words like “click here” and “join” or words like that. Still use an action word or a verb in there. But what is the ultimate value that they’re looking for from you?

Nobody wants to do the act. They want to do the act in order to get the thing.

So if you can instead lead with the thing that they want, the great outcome, that value that they’re looking for, and really amplify the value instead of the act of proceeding, then we’ve seen at least that you can get more people to move forward. And that’s really because you’re just reminding them of what they came here for in the first place.

We had one button test that we ran where — I’m trying to remember the control. But anyway, the button that won was worded “End my scheduling hassles.” I think the control was something like “Sign up now.” It’s in the presentation deck, which I know is going to be shared. So “End my scheduling hassles” was the ultimate value that people wanted to get out of this solution they were thinking of using.

And so using that kind of language, like the goal they’re looking for and not the thing they’re about to do right this exact second, but the thing that they’re going to get out of it. If you can do that, or at least test it, we’ve seen really good results from that call to value over the call to action.

Stress benefits in your buttons

Jerod: That’s the old idea of stress the benefits, right?

Joanna: Yeah. And do it in your button. People just don’t think about buttons enough, unfortunately. I know I obviously said that a lot at the presentation, but they don’t. So if you can, then I think you can get a lot more out of it. Everything you know about copy writing can still be applied to your button. Nothing really changes here, right? This is a critical point on your page. Don’t forget all your copy writing tricks when it comes time to write that button.

Jerod: Perfect. And that is a wonderful point to end on. Joanna, I feel like we could talk about this for hours because there’s so much more to unpack, and so many tips. But thank you.

Joanna: Sure.

Jerod: Now, what is the best place for people to connect with you online? Obviously @copyhackers on Twitter, the site copyhackers.com. Are there any other places people can or should go to get all of your wonderful information?

Joanna: Those are really it. I’m quite active on Twitter, and definitely on my blog too. So come over and check that out, and everything there. We do a slide share. We’ll post it on the blog. You can sign up for the newsletter when you’re on copyhackers.com, and of course, we’ll send you all sorts of cool stuff that way too. So that’s how to get me.

Jerod: Perfect. And hopefully, hint hint, we can get another one of your posts up on Copyblogger soon, because…

Joanna: Yes!

Jerod: … the two that you posted have performed so well, and people absolutely love them because they’re full of great tips.

Joanna: Cool! That’s awesome. Well, thank you! I’m working on it.

Jerod: Okay, good. Then we will chat about that later.

Joanna: Okay.

Jerod: Well Joanna, thank you very much. It was wonderful meeting with you, wonderful talking with you, and we will talk soon.

Joanna: Yeah! Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me, and for letting me talk at Authority Intensive.

Jerod: Anytime.

Thank you for listening to The Lede. And my thanks again to Joanna, for taking the time to join me. If you’re enjoying these episodes and finding them useful, please consider giving The Lede a rating and a review on ITunes. Also consider sharing it with a friend. We appreciate any way that you can help us spread the word. And don’t forget, The Lede is on Stitcher now. Just go to copyblogger.com/stitcher to find our page and add The Lede to your playlist.

Thanks for tuning in. We’ll talk to you soon, everybody.

# # #

*Credits: Both the intro (“Bridge to Nowhere” by Sam Roberts Band) and outro songs (“Down in the Valley” by The Head and the Heart) are graciously provided by express written consent from the rights owners.

Never Miss New Shows and Episodes on Rainmaker.FM

Get the best of the Rainmaker.FM network in a single weekly email, along with two weeks
of free training that will change the way you think about online marketing ...

Free Registration

You might also like...

Technology Translated

Learning How to Rock Twitter, with Amber Osborne

Listen to episode
Confessions of a Pink-Haired Marketer

The 2 Points of Clarity that Will Make You So Much More Productive

Listen to episode
Technology Translated

How Much Does it Cost to Build a Website?

Listen to episode
StudioPress FM

The One Thing That Can Make or Break Your Creative Business

Listen to episode
The Digital Entrepreneur

Behind the Scenes: 2014 in Review and the Road Ahead

Listen to episode
The Digital Entrepreneur

How Will Falconer Stopped Trading Dollars for Hours and Found His Calling

Listen to episode
Rainmaker.FM is Brought to You ByWP Engine

Discover why more than 80,000 companies in 135 countries choose WP Engine for managed WordPress hosting.

Start getting more from your site today!

Copyright © 2023 Rainmaker Digital, LLC. Powered by the Rainmaker Platform.

Privacy Policy  ·  Refund Policy  ·  Cookie Policy  ·  Terms of Service  ·  Contact