Demian Farnworth is an introvert. Demian Farnworth is also a successful podcaster. In case you were under the false impressions that those two couldn’t go together, we offer up this insightful episode of The Lede.
Across 35 minutes in this episode, Jerod and Demian discuss:
- Demian’s biggest concern going from co-hosting a podcast to running his own show
- How Demian deals with the “disembodied” audience connection that podcasts make possible, but also hard to measure
- This misconception about successful podcasters that Demian is “blowing out of the water”
- Why Demian named the show “Rough Draft”
- Why he chose to release four episodes a week (and how he stays ahead of that ambitious schedule)
- How producing four shows per week is accelerating Demian’s podcasting learning curve
- Where Demian plans to take Rough Draft
- How Demian deals with the negative feedback he’s received
- What advice Demian would give to any fellow introvert considering starting a podcast
- And … could Jerod actually pull off long hair?
Listen to the latest episode of The Lede right here:
Listen to Copyblogger FM below ...
The Show Notes
- How the Perfect Article Is Framed by White Space
- The One Quality All Popular Podcasts Share
- The Longhairs
The Introvert’s Guide to Launching a Successful Podcast
Jerod Morris: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at Rainmaker.FM/Platform.
Demian Farnworth: The awkward stage is awkward. There’s just no way around it.
Jerod Morris: You just have to fight through it. It’s kind of like the dip in podcasting.
Demian Farnworth: You do. You just got to be patient — wear hats, wear fedoras, you know, whatever.
Jerod Morris: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to The Lede, a podcast about content marketing by Copyblogger Media here on Rainmaker.FM. I am your host Jerod Morris, one of the VPs of Rainmaker.FM, and of course, my co-host is Demian Farnworth, the chief content writer for Copyblogger Media as well as the host of Rough Draft.
When we launched Rainmaker.FM, obviously, we launched it with a lot of shows. There have been few shows, if any, that have started out with the meteoric rise that Rough Draft has had. On last week’s episode of The Lede, Demian interviewed me about podcasting, about my experience with podcasting, some of the things I’ve learned along the way.
So I decided to turn the tables on him and interview him. Because not only am I impressed with what he’s doing with Rough Draft, especially just from a logistical standpoint, putting out four episodes a week, but I think part of what Demian is doing is blowing a certain misconception out of the water about the type of person that should podcast.
I think there’s this misconception out there that podcasting is for extroverts and you have to have this big personality to do it right. You all know Demian, and that’s not Demian. He’s talked a lot on this show about how he is an introvert and is much better and feels more comfortable in one-on-one type situations. I think the success that he is having with Rough Draft is a real sign to other people who may similarly identify themselves as introverts that, “Hey, this is still a medium for me.”
I asked Demian about that, asked him about the schedule, where he wants to take Rough Draft. It’s really a fun, interesting 30-35 minutes talk, at least it was for me. We had fun with it, so I hope that you all will enjoy it as well.
I do just want to say, as you’re going through this and if podcasting is something that you’ve thought about dipping your toes into it but haven’t quite yet, take a look at the Rainmaker Platform. You can do it at Rainmaker.FM/Platform. Obviously, The Lede and every other show on Rainmaker.FM is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform. But another reason why some people don’t get into podcasting who should is they’re afraid of the technology part of it and that it’s going to be complicated and difficult to set up.
That’s one of the reasons why the Rainmaker Platform was created. Just go check it out, Rainmaker.FM/Platform. The podcasting features really simplify the process, and that combined with everything else that Rainmaker Platform has is really something that can accelerate your ability to create the kind of online platform that you want and that will serve your personal and your business goals. Anyway, check it out, Rainmaker.FM/Platform.
With that said, let’s turn it over now to myself — that was awkward — turn it over here to my interview with Demian Farnworth about his experience so far running his own show, Rough Draft.
Hey, Demian, quick question for you. When are you getting in to Denver for Authority Rainmaker? Are you getting in Tuesday or Wednesday?
Demian Farnworth: Tuesday.
Jerod Morris: You’re getting in Tuesday. Yeah, so am I. Basically, when this episode airs, we will both be in Denver for Authority Rainmaker. How crazy is that?
Demian Farnworth: That’s nuts.
Jerod Morris: It is nuts. I feel like we’ve been talking about the conference for so long, and now it’s finally here, which is really exciting.
Demian Farnworth: That’s the way it always happens, right?
Jerod Morris: I know, and I’m pumped. Any time that you can actually meet people who listen to your content or read your content and meet them in person, it’s always so great. I look forward to hopefully having people who listen to The Lede, let us know, identify themselves, and then they can take sides in the debates that we’ve been having.
And … Could Jerod Actually Pull Off Long Hair?
Demian Farnworth: I’ve got to tell you, there’s a couple of guys who were there last year, and they approached me. They both looked like surfer dudes, and of course, they’re from San Diego, California. They’ve got long hair, and they’re like, “Dude, we just wanted to come up and tell you that your hair rocks!”
We just hit it off well with these guys, and they started this movement called ‘The Long Hairs.’ This is a great site. You’ve got to check it out, The Long Hairs. It’s devoted to guys with long hair. These guys are nuts, but they’re having a good time going around and just sort of celebrating the life of the long locks.
Jerod Morris: Speaking of that, I was getting my haircut, I don’t know …
Demian Farnworth: I’m looking forward to seeing those guys again. They’ll be there this year, so that’s why I brought it up.
Jerod Morris: They will! OK, good, I’m glad they’ll be there.
Demian Farnworth: I’ll introduce you to them.
Jerod Morris: Yes, and I may be able to join the group.
Demian Farnworth: Yes!
And … Could Jerod Actually Pull Off Long Hair?
Jerod Morris: I don’t think I’ve told you this. I was getting my haircut several months ago, and I was kind of dissatisfied. The lady who cuts my hair was starting to talk me in to growing it out a little bit longer. I’m kind of in this awkward phase right now where it almost looks mullet-like in the back. I can’t do anything with it because it looks weird, and Heather’s making fun of me all the time and wanting me to get my haircut. My first question, do you think that I potentially have potential as a long hair.
Demian Farnworth: Oh yeah. You’re a good looking guy, so you’ll pull it off. The awkward stage is awkward. There’s just no way around it.
Jerod Morris: So you just have to fight through it. It’s kind of like the dip in podcasting.
Demian Farnworth: You do. You just got to be patient — wear hats, wear fedoras, whatever.
Jerod Morris: If I end up wearing a fedora to Authority Rainmaker, you’ll know I’m trying to hide the awkward stage, growing my hair out.
Demian Farnworth: Yeah. That’s when most guys turn back — the ridicule that they get from that.
Jerod Morris: That’s kind of where I’m at. Actually, I have a haircut appointment literally two hours after we get done recording this episode.
Demian Farnworth: Cancel it.
Jerod Morris: I may. Alright, you’ve made me feel better about this. Heather’s not going like you for it, but you’ve made me feel better for it.
Demian Farnworth: OK.
Jerod Morris: Let’s get on to today’s topic, which is podcasting. Last week we talked about podcasting, and you were kind enough to kind of turn the tables on me and ask me questions about my podcasting experience. Now, I want to do it with you.
I’m really glad that you proposed this two-part series because this is a conversation I wanted to have with you anyway. I was going to wait and talk with you about it in Denver, but we might as well share it with everybody. I’m very intrigued about how your experience has been with Rough Draft. Obviously, we’ve hosted The Lede for a while now, and you’ve certainly run your own sites. You’re such an accomplished copywriter and have done so many things, but you’ve never hosted a podcast on your own.
I know that you identify as an introvert and not always comfortable in that kind of role, and I was really kind of curious, not how you would do with Rough Draft because I knew that you would do great and produce a great show, but how you would feel about it, how excited and enthusiastic you would be able to stay with it, doing it on your own. Obviously, Rough Draft has been a huge success. Of all the shows on Rainmaker.FM, it seems like the one that’s consistently at the top in iTunes and doing really well.
Demian’s Biggest Concern Going from Co-Hosting a Podcast to Running His Own Show
Jerod Morris: To start out here, let me ask you, what was the biggest challenge for you of going from co-hosting a show like we did on The Lede to hosting a show all yourself?
Demian Farnworth: I think the biggest concern for me was the technology, learning how to use a microphone, how to record it, how to save it, how to edit it. The reason it was no hesitation for me because I’ve always been like, “I would do a podcast if somebody else would do the production side of it.” So when that was pitched I was like, “This is a no brainer.”
I knew that I didn’t want to do an interview style, at least not a majority of the content, because I don’t relish the thought of seeking out new people, reaching out, building that relationship, and interviewing and stuff. That’s sort of emotionally exhausting for me so that’s one of the reasons that I went with the monologue.
Plus, I knew that I wanted to organize — I’ve been in this business for over 15 years, and I’ve got a lot content. I’ve created a lot of sort of educational materials. And I was like, “This would be a great way to systematize that, to organize it and put it in rows and start doing it that way. It was really kind of a no brainer from that point.
The biggest concern was like, “OK, this is something new.” We had to learn how to do Trello and all that process behind that. That was my biggest concern, but that’s something I looked at as a challenge. Like, “Hey, here’s a new skill to put under your belt and make you more marketable, makes you more profitable for the company, too.”
How Demian Deals With the ‘Disembodied’ Audience Connection That Podcasts Make Possible, but Also Hard to Measure
Jerod Morris: Yeah. Take me back to the first time you recorded an episode of Rough Draft. Because again, when we’ve done these episodes of The Lede, it’s always been the two of us here together. I’m curious about that first time when you were recording an episode just for yourself. Did you feel kind of safe like you’re just in your room — you’re by yourself. You’re just recording — or did you feel naked to the world even during the moment of recording, knowing it was just you and that this was eventually going out to a big audience.
Demian Farnworth: See that’s the interesting thing. That’s sort of why I brought up that question last time, talking about how do you engage the audience because the show’s done well. To be honest, if it was just me and my resources behind Rough Draft, it would not have this sort of success. I owe that to the support I’ve gotten from Copyblogger, and I owe that from the support I’ve gotten from the Copyblogger audience.
At the same time, I go into this little booth that I’ve created. I record a show. I then ship it off to the production team, and there it is. We wait for it to publish, and then we get some interaction with it. So it’s been kind of this disembodied thing to be honest. To be honest, I’ve had so much fun doing it. I love doing it, and I’ve gotten a number of comments from people who’ve said — comments on iTunes — saying, “This is definitely a different side of Demian, not like he would do his interview with The Lede.”
I do feel, in a way, I get a chance to act, in a sense, in way I treat it. This is what I do. I’ve got this booth that I created out of an old washing machine box. Then I got some egg carton, foam, and with some spray adhesive, I’ve filled out this booth. I go in there, and I just pretend like I’m talking to another person. Like it was just me and another person across the table from me, and I’m telling you. I try to make it as intimate as I possibly can in that way. Does that make sense?
Jerod Morris: Yeah, it does. You’ve talked a lot on the show about how you identify as an introvert and you like one-on-one conversations, but maybe not as much group conversations. It’s funny because I think some people struggle with, “OK, do I talk to just one person, or do I address everybody as a group?” I feel like you get a better connection when you address one person.
I’m wondering do you feel like your natural inclination to be in a one-on-one conversation — I wonder if that helps you connect with an audience because you do that naturally as you’re speaking in your podcast.
Demian Farnworth: I think so, yeah. That’s the way I try to treat it because, again, we’ve mentioned this before on past episodes of The Lede — I do not like public speaking. I feel very dysfunctional and crippled in front of a lot of people, but one-on-one I really relate. I really get down to loving the person, trying to be interested in that person, and focusing my eyes on them and listening.
In a lot of sense, that’s one of the reasons I chose the monologue. I don’t necessarily want to do the back and forth even though I have some plans down the road for some interviews for Rough Draft. But I never thought about it that way.
This Misconception About Successful Podcasters That Demian Is ‘Blowing Out of the Water’
Jerod Morris: You realize what you’re doing here is you’re blowing some popular misconceptions out of the water.
Demian Farnworth: Which are what?
Jerod Morris: A lot of people, just in talking — like for instance, I’ve talked with Heather about, “Hey, why don’t you start a podcast,” and she’s like, “No, you know I’m shy. I don’t want to do this.” And I think a lot of people feel like if you wouldn’t be comfortable up on a stage in front of a group of people giving a presentation, if you don’t have that level of extroversion, then you shouldn’t do a podcast — which I think is so wrong. I think you’re clearly showing people that that’s not right. Obviously, you have to find your own way to do it, but you’re showing exactly the path for how to do it.
Demian Farnworth: It’s funny. This booth I’m in, it’s pretty tight. It’s pretty compact. And I sometimes feel like I’m in a phone booth, and I’m on the phone talking to somebody, like across the country — which I hope adds, in some sense, to the intimacy.
Jerod Morris: Yeah. I say this because I kind of get the sense from talking to you on the last episode and this one, so correct me if I’m wrong — are you dissatisfied with the level of connection that you feel with the audience? Do you feel there’s a disconnect that you can’t quite bridge yet, and you’re looking for ways to bridge it and connect more?
Demian Farnworth: I think so. Let me compare it to, I’ve been writing for years. So you publish a blog post, and you get comments almost immediately. You get Tweets and people Tweeting you. Once it’s published, there’s almost this immediate reaction to it, but you just don’t have that with the podcast because most people are listening to it via, they might be running, driving, or commuting in some form. If you don’t do it right away, you’re probably going to forget about it. That’s just how we are. I guess, in part, that’s sort of how I feel.
That’s why I’m thinking, “So how do I know people are listening? How do I know people are responding?” That’s why I said, “Is it normal to look at the top charts on iTunes and keep refreshing to see where you’re at?” — because I kind of feel that’s the gauge. “OK, at least people are listening, at least they’re downloading. Hopefully that’s what they’re doing.” Of course, I’ve almost got 50 ratings and reviews on the show, and I love those. I remind people, that kind of stuff just enthuses me. Hearing people and getting their encouragement makes me want to work harder. That’s why it’s important to me to have that connection.
Jerod Morris: Yeah. Take me back to the beginning of the show. I want to start going through the process of how you decide on your format, how you produce it, but I want to go back to the beginning again real quick. Did you have any trepidation about stepping out there and doing a solo show, or as soon as we start talking about the idea of Rainmaker.FM and Copyblogger folks having their own show, was it something that you were immediately excited about? Did you have to be talked into it at all?
Demian Farnworth: Yes and no. I knew I wanted to do it, but again, I fear everything. I was like, “OK, what if this is a flop? What if I can’t do this? What if … ?” It’s that resistance that Steven Pressfield talks about. It’s that doubt that creeps in to your mind, but I knew that I wanted to do it. Like I said, I would have done a podcast, but I just didn’t want to put the muscle into the production side of things, because I’m lazy. I really, really wanted to do it, but I knew that I had some challenges to overcome.
Why Demian Named the Show ‘Rough Draft’
Jerod Morris: Let’s talk about the evolution of the idea. Tell me about the name first. Did that come from you?
Demian Farnworth: It did, right.
Jerod Morris: What was the inspiration for that?
Demian Farnworth: When Robert called and said, “Hey do you want to do this?” I’m like, “Yeah.” I got to work on figuring out the name and just going through the process. I looked at a ton of different podcasts and what their names were, and I thought of some things — The Copywriting Hour with Demian — I was like, “That’s just not going to work.”
Rough draft is the document that you create your first time around writing something. I wanted something that symbolizes what we’re doing. We’re writing online, and so a rough draft is just part of that process. It’s tied to writing, and people can recognize that. It would have been really funny, too, if I still drank. I could say Rough Draft like it could be some pun on the word ‘draft.’
Why He Chose to Release Four Episodes a Week (and How He Stays Ahead of That Ambitious Schedule)
Jerod Morris: Yeah. I think probably the most consequential decision that you made was your format and going with this Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday format. As we look forward to the future of your show, I think it’s the decision you made that will have the biggest impact on the future because it’s already helped you grow. But you can certainly see a scenario where keeping a schedule that ambitious could become difficult as well.
I’d like for you to take me back to that point, when you made that decision, and just talk about what it’s been like. How you anticipate keeping that schedule in the future, if that is getting daunting at all, if it’s getting easier — just what your general feelings on it are.
Demian Farnworth: Two things informed that decision to go daily and go short. One of them was Robert said, “Hey, your first 100 shows are going to be crap.” And I knew like “OK, well your first 100 shows — how long would it take me to get to 100 shows?” If I did it once a week, that means almost two years of doing shows before I get that 100 under my belt. I was just too impatient for that. If I do it daily, then I’m rapidly lowering my learning curve.
The other reason was, I looked around and everybody’s doing a weekly show or a monthly show. They’re also doing an interview type show. Just by nature, I can’t do what everybody else is doing, so I said, “I’m going to do the daily short show.”
Jerod Morris: And how has it been? Has it been harder than you thought it would be? Now, obviously, we have the benefit of a lot of production assistance, but still, it’s a lot of content to create. So how has it been?
Demian Farnworth: It is. The one thing I didn’t anticipate that’s been more than I thought was that for each show I have to create a blog post, but I’ve just had to adjust and — I shared on a post a couple of weeks ago on artificial constraints — say, “I only have so much time to do this show. My tendency is to make it completely and utterly perfect, but I can’t do that. I just don’t have time to do that, so I have to come to a blog post that’s good enough, a headline that’s good enough” — and I spend most of my time on the headline — “and just get it good enough and move on within those constraints.”
My schedule eventually has sort of evolved over time. On Mondays, I send all what I did. I send four shows in to production. That means I write the blog post and do a little bit of the editing. That includes telling the production people, “Hey, cut this. Put the music in here and that sort of thing.” That’s on Monday. Wednesday, I actually write the scripts for the show. Then on Friday, I actually do the recording, and I only spend four hours. I give myself 8 to 12 on each of those days so that I have boundaries.
If there aren’t boundaries there, I’ll be up at 8 o’clock in the evening working on the same thing and neglecting my other duties. I’ve got other duties, and until Rough Draft proves itself. It’s like, “You can’t spend that much time and money on it.” I’ve got to be careful. Plus, there’s burnout. That’s the thing, too. Sometimes I do reach a point after the production side of things and maybe it was particularly heavy I’m like, “I just need to get away for a moment,” but it always comes back.
I’ve suggested before, I love doing this because I get to be a side of myself that I normally don’t get to do. It’s almost, in a way, that I get to perform, like perform in front of an audience of one. So I really, really have fun doing that. Each time I go back to it, I’m like, “I’m revived. This is neat. This is fun,” and ideas just keep coming to me on how to evolve and make the show better.
How Producing Four Shows Per Week Is Accelerating Demian’s Podcasting Learning Curve
Jerod Morris: Are you afraid at all, about the future, about maintaining the schedule, or do you have some plans in place for, say you want to go on vacation or you’re not going to be around to do seasons or take a hiatus or, have you thought through that yet?
Demian Farnworth: Yeah, absolutely. No, I’m actually eight shows ahead of myself. I’ve already got eight shows in the can. Like this Monday, when I sit down to do production, I already have eight shows recorded, so I do four. I’m always two weeks out. I’ve got that space. Like next week, I’m going to do a couple of interviews, which won’t require as much time on the script side of things for me, so that will give me another additional show.
It’s that idea of pre-planning. I knew that I had to have enough shows in there in case something comes up because that sort of rigid schedule that I have, if things are dependent upon happening like that, there’s not a lot of room for error. One Friday, I just recorded eight shows in a row and, “OK, just make sure I keep that inventory there so I’m not ever out.
Jerod Morris: Is that the Friday I was sending you all those urgent emails, and I never heard back?
Demian Farnworth: Could have been. Yeah, it could have been.
Jerod Morris: I want to go back to something you said earlier. You mentioned Robert’s statement about how your first 100 shows are going to suck, which I concur with generally. Let me set the stage here. You’re doing four shows each week. They’re maybe eight to nine minutes a piece. An episode of The Showrunner is say 32 to 35 minutes, so the length is the same.
Do you think there is a difference in preparing for individual shows even if they’re shorter, that doing each individual show and recording it and thinking through it and planning it, that, that puts your further ahead having done four of those than just doing one 35-minute longer show. Do you think it’s the show that matters or the time spent behind the mic, the time in the production?
Demian Farnworth: That’s a great question. That’s a really good question. It’s almost like for each show I do come back to it. I come back around to it, and in the sense of a 32-minute Showrunner, you plan for that and this is how it’s going to run. You know in some ways, I sort of try to treat weeks as themes. I know the first four shows are going to be around this particular content, and I might run that in chunks.
Like for three weeks, I’m going to focus on one particular theme of online writing. I kind of focused it that way. So, yeah, there’s something to be said about the amount of time I put in to it, but I’ve got to go back around and create. Because of what’s involved with each one, just from the production side of it, it kind of feels that way.
Jerod Morris: The other thing is that when you’re doing these, especially when you’re recording alone, you know you can do a recording and there’s not a lot of instant feedback. Obviously, you’re recording this, and it’s not even going to go out for many weeks after that. Have you had a moment, and if you have describe it, where you recorded something, you laid it down, it’s on tape, and you kind of backed away and you were like, “That was good. I nailed it”? You didn’t need anyone else to tell you, you just felt it. “The audience is going to love this because I really nailed that one.”
Demian Farnworth: That’s a good question. I don’t know if I’ve ever felt that way because I guess I’m a little shy with saying “That was really good” — I’m sure there’s probably been moments there. I know that there’s been shows after production when working with Toby and twentyfour sound and stuff, I’m like, “Yeah, that’s a good show.” When he sends them to me and I listen to them, I’m giddy like a little school girl listening to them. I’m like, “Oh yeah, that’s good. That’s really good.”
That’s the other thing, too, though. I will say this, you could disagree with this, but you only get one chance to look back on each show and say, “Yeah that was kind of stupid. I shouldn’t have done that.” Of course, the length of it is the same, but I get that opportunity four different times. That’s the way I look at it. I go back and I’m, “Oh man, that was bad.” I can do that with each show, so I can quickly evolve. You have to wait then another week, or you can just go back and re-record it of course.
Jerod Morris: I agree. I asked that question — I didn’t really say how I felt about it. I do think that you doing each show, producing this complete content entity, moves you further ahead. I think maybe I would get more out of a 35-minute Showrunner than you would get out of one episode of Rough Draft, but producing more and more complete pieces of content, that process itself is going to get you a lot further within the context of Robert’s 100 episodes.
Where Demian Plans to Take Rough Draft
Jerod Morris: Where do you want to take Rough Draft. It’s already evolved. The one that you did about white space, using the music to really set the mood and combining that with the imagery. Your show is already evolving.
Can you peer into the future like in six months and see how you want the content itself to evolve, or is this just something where you’re going to kind of experiment and try stuff. See what works. What are in some of the future plans for you?
Demian Farnworth: I’d have to say experiment to see what works. I know long term sort of the direction it’s going to go as far as the content. But the presentation, I’m not 100 percent sure. I know just because it’s in my nature, I consistently, “OK, that’s going to get old real quick, I need to change that up. What can I do to mix things up? How can I add something new? How can I make this evolve, so you’re evolving upward.” The last thing I want to do is hit a rut and it’s sort of another show about this, that Demian is doing. This time it’s about this.
Like I said, I got a plan to do some interviews and do them very short-form interviews with some people on a very specific topic with a very specific set of people who I don’t think normally get interviewed a lot, that sort of thing. Again, for me, it’s an experiment. I’m a fly by the seat of the pants type of guy, but I never find myself short of ideas. I’m always am open to ideas and advice from other people. It was actually Toby’s suggestion that we put music into the show.
Jerod Morris: Yeah. And a good suggestion. He’s obviously done a great job with all the shows. I’ve been really, really impressed.
Demian Farnworth: Yeah. Even that, though, I knew I was using music inside one of the shows. I knew that could get old really, really quick, so it’s like I need to evolve that. I need to change that. Maybe I’ll even go back to doing a number of shows without any music, just having my voice. Sometimes I’ll listen back, and I’m like, “Maybe I shouldn’t have done music there.” That white space episode is by far my favorite one because everything just came together really, really well. You want more of those, but it has to come through experimentation.
How Demian Deals with the Negative Feedback He’s Received
Jerod Morris: Yeah. Couple quick questions here before we wrap up. You mentioned being open to ideas from other people. I’m curious, your show since it debuted, it’s been a party of plaudits. Everybody’s been talking about how great it is. It’s been up in the charts, and everything’s been going really well. I’m curious, have you gotten any negative feedback, even if it’s constructive criticism from someone who really likes the show?
That can derail podcasters early on I think and harm confidence. It can make them feel like they’re completely on the wrong track even if the critique was just about something small. Have you dealt with that in this early celebratory period? Have you gotten that, and if so, how have you handled it.
Demian Farnworth: I have. Robert Bruce has been just exceptional in supporting me. For example, I got a comment on one of the blog posts. This guy said, “Great show. Are you drunk?” I got his point, and my wife who’s listening to it, too, she’s telling me things, and that’s the person that I particularly pay attention to. One time I got a — and I didn’t know this, I only knew this because Robert pointed it out to me. He said, “Listen, that two-star comment that you got, just ignore her because she doesn’t know what she’s talking about.”
Of course, there was some gal there who said, “Yeah, I just don’t like his approach. It’s really good content. It’s a shame I wouldn’t share it because he’s just … ” Again, it was another variation of, “he sounds like he’s drunk,” or “he’s trying to be a surfer, or he’s high,” or something like that. I do admit there is sort of a dreamy quality that comes through. Like I said, it’s a part of me that I don’t normally show, but it’s like a performance.
Anyway, hitting that, the other thing is my show is showing up higher and higher in the top the charts. Naturally, that’s why it’s sort of encouraging to hear Jon Nastor say, “Yeah my show sat in the upper 100s for a number of months before it started to climb back down and stuff.” That’s just part of the game. This is the thing, too, I’m part of a network. I love seeing our shows up in that top space because it just means good thing for us. It means good things for the Copyblogger audience. This is not like, “I need to be on those charts,” but you have to think, “Yeah, OK, you’re not always going to be in first.”
Only one person can win the Superbowl, but every team goes out there and competes. Even though there’s 32, they go out there and compete and try to win it. That’s what we’re all after, but ultimately, the thing is, you talk about teamwork and collaboration, it’s really about a win for the Rainmaker.FM network more than anything.
What Advice Demian Would Give to Any Fellow Introvert Considering Starting a Podcast
Jerod Morris: Yeah, definitely. So my final question for you is for anybody out there who’s listening and who may see themselves as shy or as introverted or who has never done a podcast before — Maybe they co-hosted, but they’ve never run their own show. Maybe they’re feeling a little bit of trepidation. They’re feeling a little bit of fear. They’re not sure if they want to take that next step to doing it.
What advice would you give that person, both on whether they should do it, and how they can set themselves up for success if they do choose to pursue that path?
Demian Farnworth: I think you just have to do it. If you have the desire to do it and you have the ability to — and I don’t think this is any different than people who talk about starting a blog or publishing a website — just committing to it. The funny thing is I hear a lot of people say — and this is the thing that I had overcome — I hate the sound of my voice. Eventually with enough encouragement and compliments, you know what you hear it’s not what other people are hearing, so just get over it and move on. Like a good friend of ours, Summer.
Jerod Morris: Summer.
Demian Farnworth: Summer, yes. I love her name. So she was telling me — and I think she spoke to you, too — she was like, “I just hate the sound of my voice.” I was like, “Your voice sounds great! Just improve the equipment quality, and I think you’ll be on to good shows.”
So here’s the shy person, this is my advice to you. Here’s an opportunity to be — for me, I’ve always wanted to be the center of attention, but I don’t want to be center of attention because I hate all eyes on me. It’s this weird, complicated thing. But podcasting allows you to be the center of attention without people actually looking at you.
It’s just you and the microphone, especially if you’re going to do a monologue, which I really strongly suggest because I think it is tough for shy people to do good interviews unless they are outgoing, they can get over that hump, and they can be friendly and vibrant and vital, but the ability to say, “Hey, this is what I’m going to do. This is how I’m going to commit to it.” Most importantly, is just saying, “Hey, I’m in this for the long haul, and I’m in this to improve and get better and conquer this and master this skill.”
Jerod Morris: Have you considered actually recording in a studio as opposed to on top of a surfboard while bonging a beer?
Demian Farnworth: No, that’s a terrible idea.
Jerod Morris: According to iTunes reports, that’s how you’re producing these shows.
Demian Farnworth: Oh, that’s great. I don’t know how they figured that out. Now they know my secret. That’s all it takes.
Jerod Morris: Yeah, that’s all it takes. That’s how you get comfortable behind the mic. I will say, for me anyway, Robert’s right, it takes 100 episodes to produce shows that aren’t crap. For me, it took about 200 episodes to not hate the sound of my voice when I was editing. If you do hate listening to the sound of your own voice, welcome to the club. I think all of us deal with that.
Well, Demian, this was really great, man. I’m actually hoping that wherever people are listening to this right now, that we are somewhere in Denver actually expanding this conversion because there’s a lot more I want to talk with you about just with your experience. You’re doing such a great job with it.
Demian Farnworth: Thank you.
Jerod Morris: I knew you would, but you’re surpassing even what I thought Rough Draft could be. I’m just really happy and proud to be your co-host on The Lede. I mean I always was, but especially now seeing what you’re doing with Rough Draft.
Demian Farnworth: I’m just grateful for the opportunity.
Jerod Morris: I’ll tell you what, the other big point you made, listening to your wife, I will say Heather has given me some of the best feedback ever about shows.
Demian Farnworth: They’re going to be honest. They’re going be absolutely honest.
Jerod Morris: Exactly. Exactly, they will.
Demian Farnworth: Which we need.
Jerod Morris: Yes we do. Yes we do. Alright, Demian, I’ll see you soon, in Denver.
Demian Farnworth: Sounds good.
Jerod Morris: Alright, everybody, take care. We will talk to you soon.
Demian Farnworth: Bye-bye.
Jerod Morris: Thank you very much for tuning in to this episode of The Lede. We always greatly appreciate your attention, especially if you lasted all the way to the end. Thank you.
I will just reiterate that if you’ve been thinking about podcasting, especially if maybe a feeling of introversion or shyness has kept you from doing it, really listen to Demian’s words and follow his example.
Realize that all different personality types can succeed in podcasting. If that’s something that’s kept you from doing it, maybe, hopefully, this episode will inspired you to take that next step to do it anyway. If that’s the case and you’re looking to build your platform, then you should go to Rainmaker.FM/Platform.
Check out everything that Rainmaker has to offer, especially the podcasting features, which I know have allowed a lot of people who have thought about podcasting to feel empowered to go do it because they know the technological hurdles they would have otherwise had to jump over and face won’t be there. That in and of itself can be empowering.
So check out Rainmaker.FM/Platform. It may be for you. The nice thing is you get a 14-day free trial so that you can try it out. You don’t have to guess. You can actually see if it’s for you.
All right, everybody, again, thank you for listening. If you’d be willing to give us a review or a rating on iTunes, we always greatly appreciate it. With that said, we will hopefully see many of you at Authority Rainmaker this week.
For those of who aren’t at Authority Rainmaker, we will talk to you next week on another new episode of The Lede.