No. 020 Why Podcasting is a Crappy Hobby, but a Great Job (Or is it?)

Jerod Morris and Jon Nastor on August 12, 2015

And now for something slightly different. This episode was recorded backwards and worked surprisingly well (or did it?).

This episode was inspired by a statement made by Roman Mars during his keynote presentation at Podcast Movement 2015.

As you will hear, both Jerod and I have strong and opposing opinions about Roman’s choice of words. In the end, we both realized that Jon’s opinions on this matter are better articulated, contradictory of his original points, and plain funnier.

In this episode we discuss:

  • Is podcasting really a “shit hobby, but a great job”?
  • The importance of taking your audience 100% seriously
  • Why you have to treat your podcast like a job before it can ever become one
  • Jonny explains his decision to become Mr. Contradiction

Our listener question this week is brought to you by The Showrunner Podcasting Course. The course is open for the next two days of this being published. As of today, you get everything, forever. In the future, there will be a recurring price to maintain access to the community and ongoing education. Right now, it’s all included.

Go and check it out (we’ll wait here): ShowrunnerCourse.com

And this week’s listener question comes to us from Sally J. Fox (via iTunes). Could you two open up to what kind of resources you use on the backside for post-production or support for the podcast?

Jerod and I provide our resources, contractors, and thoughts on hiring people to help with your show.

And finally, this week’s podcast recommendation.

The Show Notes:

Listen, learn, enjoy …

No. 020 Why Podcasting Is a Crappy Hobby, but a Great Job (or Is It?)

Voiceover: Rainmaker.FM is brought to you by The Showrunner Podcasting Course, your step-by-step guide to developing, launching, and running a remarkable show. Registration for the course is open August 3rd through the 14th, 2015. Go to ShowrunnerCourse.com to learn more.

Jerod Morris: Welcome to The Showrunner, where we have one goal: teach you how to develop, launch, and run a remarkable show. Ready?

Should we just put a note? Should I just record a quick note at the beginning? “Part of what we’re talking about today is a quote from Roman Mars.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, I would.

Jerod Morris: He used the ‘sh’ word.

Jonny Nastor: I would do that, yeah. We use it to quote him only, and that’s it. You could even use that as a tiny lesson, if you will. That’s kind of how I think of it, and probably you, it’s our own show. We can do what we want, but we also have to respect our audience. But it’s not really respecting my show if I’m going to bleep it all out or cut it all up, you know?

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Though I don’t feel we used it gratuitously, either.

Jonny Nastor: No, we didn’t. We only used it in the “Sh*t hobby, great job?” That’s exactly the verbatim quote.

Jerod Morris: All right. I’ll record a real quick thing at the beginning. Wait, why don’t we just record it right now together?

Jonny Nastor: I’m still recording.

Jerod Morris: I am, too. Can we use the explanation that we just had?

Jonny Nastor: I think we probably can. It’s funny. Everything we’ve done today has just been like, “Can we just use what we just had rather than re-do it because we’re still recording?”

Jerod Morris: Well, it’s real. I guess we could go back and make it formal. “Hey, everybody. This is Jerod. I just want to let you know that in the middle of this episode … ” I think it’s better. We just explained it in a real way. I bet we can find a way to chop that up.

Jonny Nastor: I think so. I think we can, too. It is a good lesson. It is your show. You should be able to do what you want, but at the same time, you got to respect your audience.

Jerod Morris: Sweetness.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, if they’re driving around in the car with kids because they always know that our shows are clean, then we should warn them. I’ve actually heard that. I think I heard that once on Pat’s show because Pat’s usually really clean. Well, he is. But his guest once, and he just said that at the beginning.

Jerod Morris: Okay.

Welcome back everybody to episode no. 20 of The Showrunner podcast. I’m your host Jerod Morris, VP of Rainmaker.FM. I’m joined, as always by Jonny Nastor, defender of humanity and hypothetical host of ‘Smack the Entrepreneur.’ Jonny, it’s wonderful to have you here.

Jonny Nastor: Thanks. Thanks so much for allowing me to come on the show. It’s going to be fun.

Jerod Morris: This is a very interesting opening that we’re doing. We’re actually recording the opening after recording the entire episode. I wanted to give folks a little peek behind the curtain as to why.

For a while, you and I, as soon as we would get on Skype, we would start hitting record just so that during our pre-show process when we’re planning it out, if we had a really good conversation, we would have it recorded. We stopped doing that for a few weeks. This time, as soon as both of us got on Skype, unbeknownst to the other, we both hit record. We have these four topics that we were going to choose from for this episode. While we were going over that, we kind of spontaneously just jumped into one of them and just decided to roll from there.

That became the episode. We rolled into the listener question, the podcast recommendation. That wouldn’t have really happened if we hadn’t been recording. I guess what I want to point out with this opening is you can’t always do this with a guest, although I think it’s a good idea if you do, if you can. Certainly, I think, when you have co-hosts, a lot of times we get on here, and some of the best conversations come when we’re relaxed at the beginning or at the end.

Roll that tape the whole time if you end up getting into something spontaneously without really planning it. That way you have it. We’ve had times where that’s happened, and then we tried to recreate it later when recording the ‘episode.’ It never comes out the same. I just wanted to point out that it was totally spontaneous today. We didn’t plan on that happening, but sometimes you get those little bits of audio gold, or conversation gold. You wouldn’t have had them if you weren’t recording.

Jonny Nastor: Now, people are going to be let down when they get to the conversation. They’re like, “Well, I don’t know if I call this gold.”

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I know. “It sounds like these guys just started talking randomly.”

Jonny Nastor: “And neither of them knew that they were recording.” Wow. But you know what’s really great now is that there is this outro done of this episode. It is really gold. You’re going to be really excited when you get there. I wouldn’t have known this if we hadn’t done this in this backwards way, but Jerod just did the greatest outro to one of our episodes I think we’ve ever done.

Jerod Morris: Okay, now if we let them down with the main topic at least we can redeem it with the outro. All right. So start recording from the beginning. That’s the main idea.

Jonny Nastor: See, this would be a great hobby, but it’s also a really good job.

Jerod Morris: It’s both. It is. It’s both. It really is. All right, speaking of which, let’s go on to today’s main topic.

Jonny Nastor: They are going to take us off the air one of these days.

Jerod Morris: Yes, they are. Just get in as many good episodes as we can before that happens.

All right, so we get to record an episode. I like all the ideas that you have here for episodes. I think each one could be its own episode.

Is Podcasting Really a ‘Sh*t Hobby, but a Great Job’?

Jonny Nastor: Yeah. Well, I wasn’t sure if you would accept them all. They’re from my giant list. It was weird. I don’t know why. I have that notes app on my phone, and every time somebody told me of a show of theirs that I wanted to hear, something I wanted to remember, or somebody said something on stage, I just wrote down. I don’t know who said all of them, but it was like going through.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. I don’t know that I agree with the whole “podcasting is a sh*t hobby, but a great job,” but that would be a great discussion. I think it can be a great hobby that turns into a phenomenal job. It depends on if you love it.

Jonny Nastor: See, I agree with him in the sense that, I’m doing three or four episodes a week now between the two shows. That would be a sh*tty hobby. You know what I mean? If I kept Hack the Entrepreneur at one episode, I don’t think I could have turned it into a job, and it would have been a good hobby.

Jerod Morris: That’s interesting.

Jonny Nastor: There was a point around week six where I was told, “This might be the chance where you can either just go all in on this, Jon, and it could work out really well. Or else you can just keep moseying along, and it probably will just sort of stay where it is.” I went to three episodes, and it turned it into a job. That would have sucked as a hobby. It’s a lot of work, man.

Jerod Morris: Well, okay, you’re right. It would have sucked as a hobby if you then had another job. Where I think about that, where I contrast with it I guess, is The Assembly Call, which is still basically a hobby. Hopefully, this year it turns into something that generates revenue, but during the season, that’s doing three, four episodes a week. But it is a hobby. I guess it is sh*t in the sense that it’s a lot of work and late nights, and I think about quitting it after every season.

Jonny Nastor: You do, yes.

Jerod Morris: But I stay with it because I love it, which makes it an awesome hobby. I do love it and have gotten a lot out of it. I don’t quit because I love it so much. It’s a hobby that’s really more than a hobby, but hasn’t ever quite been a job, but maybe could be. I guess that’s part of why it’s been successful. I’ve treated it like more than a hobby even though that’s what it’s been.

Jonny Nastor: That’s interesting. You’re right. If I had a job, it would have been a sh*t hobby, but I also didn’t have a job. I couldn’t just keep it as a sh*t hobby — for only so long and putting so much effort into it. At some point, I had to turn it into a job or else I had to create something else. It’s just how the nature of what I do is.

Jerod Morris: Okay, but how do we reconcile this? We always talk about how people need to love their topic. It should be something that they would talk about for hours at a bar. That’s kind of what a hobby is, so I have trouble calling it a sh*t hobby when you’re also saying it should be something that you do not just for the money, but that you love. How do you kind of reconcile those?

The Importance of Taking Your Audience 100% Seriously

Jonny Nastor: You’re not doing it just for the money. That’s wrong. I don’t think that’s the discussion point. To me, the whole basis of what Roman said was that you have to absolutely value and take your audience 100 percent serious. He was discussing this in the idea of ads and creating ads that are only going to super value your audience. You’re creating the ads to make them as good as the content and that your audience is going to get as much from the ads as they are from the content.

The reason why is because you need more ads because it’s a sh*t hobby. You know what I mean? That was his whole thing. It was all about the audience. I think sometimes when you are just thinking of it as a hobby, you don’t take it serious enough. Therefore, you don’t take your audience serious enough. That stops it from ever possibly being a job.

Jerod Morris: I agree with that. I do agree with that. I’m still not sure I like the descriptor of a sh*t hobby, but I agree with what you’re saying there.

Jonny Nastor: It’s just a catchy thing he said. He said so many really impressive things through that whole thing, and that’s all I wrote down. I was just like, “Man, that’s awesome.” I wasn’t sitting there analyzing like, “Hmm, is this totally right on all sides?” No. It was a great sound bite. It was awesome. I would actually rather do the first one first if you could.

Jerod Morris: I’ve been recording.

Jonny Nastor: I’ve been recording, too, actually.

Jerod Morris: Have you really? I thought we were going to tell each other when we were recording?

Jonny Nastor: Apparently not, Mr. Smack the Entrepreneur.

Jerod Morris: That’s true. We never said that. We’re allowed to record at any time.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, you clarified that yesterday. “No. We’re always recording.”

Why You Have to Treat Your Podcast Like a Job Before It Can Ever Become One

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Always recording. All right. I guess I see that. I definitely agree with the whole idea that you’ve got to take your audience seriously. Even if it is a hobby, “because it’s not your job, and you’re not making money from it, and you still have a full-time job.” If you actually want it to grow, then you’ve got to treat it like a job in the sense of taking your schedule seriously, taking your audience seriously. It’s like act as if, right?

If you ever want to quit your job to have this podcast, at some point, you’re going to have to treat your podcast like a job before it is your job.

Jonny Nastor: Horse before the cart, yeah. You have to treat it like a job before it’s a job or else it won’t ever become a job. Everybody that we saw give keynotes and stuff, they went all in. Either they had the ability because they didn’t have jobs at the time and they were in between stuff, like Marc Maron. You know what I mean? Those kind of things.

He had years of experience of hard work and then just thought, “Oh, I can do this, and turn this maybe.” Even without knowing it could turn into a job, but taking it super serious. As serious as you would if a boss was watching over you, telling you that this isn’t good enough. “This shouldn’t go out. That doesn’t sound well when it’s edited. That art work looks terrible. That show notes are bad. That ad should not be in your show.” It’s like you have producers and stuff.

You need to treat it like this. Otherwise, it’ll never happen like that. A producer doesn’t step in and be like, “Oh, I want to work with this crappy show.” No. They step in because they want to work with an amazing show that seems like it already has a producer.

Jerod Morris: And because your audience will take it as seriously as you take it.

Jonny Nastor: Yes.

Jerod Morris: Legitimately.

Jonny Nastor: They can’t take it more serious than you. They just can’t.

Jerod Morris: That’s a big problem, especially if you set a precedent of taking it very seriously and then it starts to fall off, but people have been led to believe that you’re taking it at a certain level of seriousness. They expect more from you.

Jonny Nastor: You know what’s awesome then is that then they tell you.

Jerod Morris: They do.

Jonny Nastor: I can never remember her name, but the lady from Girl on Guy.

Jerod Morris: Aisha Tyler.

Jonny Nastor: Aisha Tyler, yes. She does everything herself still. She’s like, “People on social media are like, ‘Where’s the episode? It’s supposed to be out.'” She’s like, “Ahh! I have 62 jobs. You have none, or you have one.” But she doesn’t want to let go of it, which is a whole different discussion.

But it’s true. People expect it from her now. They’ll tell you. They will. People tell me, actually, when they don’t like something that I’ve done. I showed you an email I got on the weekend. The guy just didn’t like what I was doing, and he thought I was of a better caliber. That’s cool, right? I’ve upped it to that level so when you do try and drop off …

Jerod Morris: It’s good when your audience feels like you’re approachable enough that they can say that, when there’s a real dialogue going.

Jonny Nastor: Oh, yeah. I sent people to that guy’s house to take care of that.

Jerod Morris: But he never would have cared enough to send you that if he didn’t think that you cared about it, which clearly you do.

Jonny Nastor: Right, I know.

Jerod Morris: It’s interesting. Why do we have the giggles today?

Jonny Nastor: I don’t know.

Jerod Morris: Because podcasting is fun. That’s why.

Jonny Nastor: Because podcasting is fun. It’s a great hobby. I’m going to be Mr. Contradiction from now on.

Jerod Morris: Apparently so.

Jonny Explains His Decision to Become Mr. Contradiction

Jonny Nastor: I’m going to start something super strong on one side, and by the end of the conversation, I’m going to be totally on the other side, bashing my original points.

Jerod Morris: You’re not taking this seriously.

Jonny Nastor: No, actually it was funny. At some point in the last week, I watched an interview with Gary Vaynerchuk. He actually did that in the interview and then even pointed it out. He’s like, “My whole existence now is a contradiction. I will just try and contradict myself until all I’m trying to do is find the truth and try and find out exactly who I am. I can only do that by directly contradicting everything I say nonstop.” That’s amazing.

Jerod Morris: Wow.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, it was like, “That sounds crazy.” But when I really think about it, that’s amazing. That’s an amazing thing. He was right. I didn’t make that up. That was actually just stolen directly from Gary Vaynerchuk. So I am taking it serious. Why do you think I’m not taking it serious?

Jerod Morris: You are. You’re taking it seriously.

Jonny Nastor: I take everything serious.

Jerod Morris: You know what I’m excited to take seriously?

Jonny Nastor: What?

Jerod Morris: This week’s listener question.

Jonny Nastor: Nice.

Jerod Morris: You ready? Let’s do it.

Jonny Nastor: Let’s do it.

Jerod Morris: Jonny, do you know who this week’s listener question is sponsored by? Can you guess? Do you have an inkling?

Jonny Nastor: I’m really hoping it’s The Showrunner Podcasting Course?

Jerod Morris: It’d be really foolish of us if it were not considering The Showrunner Podcasting Course is open.

Jonny Nastor: It would, yeah.

Jerod Morris: It closes in two days from the day that this episode airs, so it closes on Friday, August 14th. We just want to remind you that it’s ShowrunnerCourse.com and that, by getting in now, you get everything forever. In the future, there’s going to be a recurring price to maintain access to the community and ongoing education. Right now, it’s all included. That is definitely the reason to go check it out.

When you go to ShowrunnerCourse.com, you’ll see everything that’s included. You will see really detailed testimonials from Showrunner course members telling you what they’ve gotten out of it. You can see if there’s stories in there that you relate with, a basic overview of our basic podcasting philosophy, and then, of course, all the details for how to sign up. Go to ShowrunnerCourse.com. Check it out. We’d love to work with you.

Listener Question: Could you two open up to what kind of resources you use on the backside for post-production or support for the podcast?

Jerod Morris: Now, on to this week’s listener question, which comes from iTunes. This is Sally J. Fox. She left this as an iTunes review, a 5-star iTunes review. Sally, we greatly appreciate it. Thank you for the kind words, and thank you for this question which is, “Could you two open up to what kind of resources you use on the backside for post-production or support for the podcast, like staff, contractors, or your neighbor?”

I don’t use my neighbors. Jonny, I don’t know if you do. I figure a Canadian might be a little bit more likely to use his neighbors than a Texan, but maybe not. I don’t know. Just making that up.

Jonny Nastor: Perhaps, perhaps.

Jerod Morris: Let’s answer Sally’s question.

Obviously, we’re in a bit of a unique situation being part of Rainmaker.FM. We do have access to some production help and a production team that a lot of our listeners don’t have. We do want to be clear about that. Now, we should also be clear that you and I have both built shows and run shows on the side where we don’t have that access, so we know both sides of it.

Through Rainmaker.FM, we have access to the great Toby Liles. He edits The Lede. Is he doing work for you on Hack the Entrepreneur?

Jonny Nastor: No, I do my own.

Jerod Morris: Okay.

Jonny Nastor: I don’t do my own. Who am I kidding? I have somebody that does mine.

Jerod Morris: Right. The great Jonny Nastor’s not going to get in there and edit in GarageBand anymore.

Jonny Nastor: I used to think I was good. I go back and listen to my original episodes. They’re not very good. I’m not very good at it. I’m just not very good at it.

Jerod Morris: We’ve started requesting and really appreciating Toby’s help in editing The Showrunner episodes, but I will be perfectly frank in that I don’t like it. I don’t like handing The Showrunner over to anybody. I don’t like handing any of my shows over to anybody. I do it out of pure necessity. To run the shows I run and maintain the responsibilities that I maintain in the day job and my other duties, I just don’t have the bandwidth to edit, too.

But if I could, I would. It’s one of those where, to me, I feel slightly disconnected from the content and the audience when I don’t put the final finishing touch on it. I know not everybody feels that way. In some ways that can be kind of a self-defeating feeling because it can be inefficient and prevent me from doing other things. It’s just how I feel. Just letting you know that.

Toby does edit The Showrunner. We do have a great team that helps us to get the transcript together, that creates the social image for these shows. For the Rainmaker.FM shows, there’s a team that does it. I know for my personal shows, like The Assembly Call, like Primility Primer, I’m pretty much doing all of it. No staff. No nothing. I do it all. Don’t hire anybody.

Maybe at some point that’ll change, but I do it all. We can get into some tools later. Any other kind of insight/overview for how you handle the post-production and production processes?

Jonny Nastor: Yeah, sure. This is interesting because I didn’t know the question beforehand, unfortunately. I’m trying to come up with a list. I wonder, should I just say it all? Should I say exactly what I do?

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Jonny Nastor: When I have this list now, it sounds like I don’t really do very much, but I’m just running around trying to catch myself all the time. I seem like I’m doing way too much. I still have a VA, a full-time VA. She works for me.

She finds guests for me, or at least finds lists of guests, potential guests, and then I say yes or no. Then she goes and gets them. She also does the rough draft of my show notes. Plus, I have a writer as well that does my introductions for each episode, which become the beginning of my show notes. That’s the part I read as my introduction to my guest now. My VA then takes that intro, makes full show notes with bullet points and links, posts it to my site.

I have an editor that does the audio editing of all the episodes. Then I have DesignPickle.com do my artwork now. They’re, I think, $200 a month, and they do unlimited artwork for you, which is amazing. I mean it’s amazing for me because I need a lot of artwork because I have a lot of episodes. Plus, they’re going back through my 100 episodes and redoing all of my artwork up to their standard, which is really, really awesome. Then my VA will take that artwork from them and post it to my article.

I think that’s it. Yeah. It’s quite a bit, but I got lucky. I got a sponsor early on. I said, when I got that first sponsor, that all that money I was willing to just spend it to be able to do the show better. Not necessarily with less work for me, but just better.

The editing is better. The artwork I used to do myself on Canva. The artwork now is better. The writing of the introductions, I used to do it, and it was good. I came up with the format. It was okay, but now I have a writer who’s really good at it and does great research. Better research than I did. Sometimes I was running and scrambled. I’d go to do an intro quickly, so I could record it. It was losing quality, so I just had to outsource it to someone else. That was how I did it, and that was why I’ve built up people around me now to help me do all of that.

Jerod Morris: Well, it’s a very appropriate bow that you’re tying on this discussion, because this gets right back to what we talked to in the main part of the episode, which is treating it like a job, taking it really seriously. That’s what you’re describing.

You wanted to improve the quality of your images, and the quality of this, that, and the other. You hired people who were better at it than you. You invested your resources in your show getting better. It’s just another reason why Hack the Entrepreneur has continued to grow. I appreciate that example because it’s something in know I need to start doing with my other shows.

We talk a lot about content. Focus on the content. Focus on the audience — which is all very true. But at some point, to do that, part of doing that is focusing on your systems. Focusing on your quality. Focusing on all of this. I know with The Assembly Call, we got a design from 99designs to finally get official branding, get an official logo.

I know, for me, that’s the next step with those shows is to basically take the steps that you’ve taken here. Get more systems. Get more people around the shows doing things that I am not as good at, doing them better. It’s great when you can get to that position.

Jonny Nastor: Yeah. It’s hard, though, like you said. I don’t mean to drag this on really long, but it’s a great question. It really, really is.

Jerod Morris: It is.

Jonny Nastor: It should have been an episode probably before, so thanks for finally bringing it to our attention, Sally. It’s just one of those things. If you don’t take it that serious, and then it’s hard to get rid of these tasks. It’s hard to let go. Like you said with the editing, right?

It was super hard for me to let go of artwork. I’m horrible at artwork, but still, “I can do it better than anyone.” Or else it was easier for me to just go do it. It was like, “It takes 10 minutes for me to do it, so I should just do it. Why spend $200 when it’s 10 minutes each time?” But it’s like, “Well, I’m doing three episodes a week. I’m doing 12 a month, and they’re not that good.” But it’s just one of those things that it was just like, “I just have to let go of it.”

I think you probably have to get comfortable with that with Toby. Him and his company are amazing at audio editing.

Jerod Morris: They are.

Jonny Nastor: They do brilliant work, and fast, and so great to work with. It’s hard to say that it’s not better for the show — because it is.

Jerod Morris: It is. No, it is.

Jonny Nastor: But it is. It’s hard for us to let go of these things. It’s our thing that we created, right? It is something. It’s not just the money. That’s the first step, obviously, is finding the money from the show to pay for these things, but then once you do that, there’s still this whole extra step where you’re not going to want to let go of them. Or you’re going to half let go of them and not let the person actually do their job properly. That’s a whole other management discussion. That is also hard.

Jerod Morris: It’s primility, Jonny. It’s having pride in what you’re creating, but the humility to understand that you can’t always do it yourself. You need help, and there are people who are better at things than you are. I need to take my own advice.

Jonny Nastor: I wish I could bump you with this red wristband I have on right now, but we’re not on video.

Jerod Morris: We’re not. Next time we’re hanging out, we’ll do the wrist bump. All right. Let’s do some podcast recommendations.

Jonny Nastor: All right.

Podcast Recommendations of the Week

Jerod Morris: My podcast recommendation for this week is Six Pixels of Separation by Mitch Joel. Specifically the episode that he did with Michael Port, which we will put in the show notes. This was actually recommended to me by Chris Handy, one of the members of The Showrunner Podcasting Course, who runs ToGo.fm, a podcast network for growth marketers. Highly recommend his stuff.

I highly recommend this episode of Six Pixels of Separation for anybody who is going to be presenting an idea. Not just presenting on a stage, but presenting in any way. Podcasting, showrunning, it’s about presenting. Every time you get behind the microphone, you’re presenting your ideas to an audience. It may be an audience of one. You may be doing it in the privacy of your own studio, but eventually people are going to hear those ideas.

What Mitch and Michael talk about in this episode is applicable for any type of presentation, any type of idea that you’re trying to present. It’s full of great tips, great ideas. I recommend that show because it will help you get better at presenting your ideas confidently and competently.

Jonny Nastor: All right. My podcast recommendation just changed, live, on the air.

Jerod Morris: Whoa. We need a little breaking news …

Jonny Nastor: No, no. The show is the same, but there’s a new episode that just came out. Just right now, which is awesome.

Jerod Morris: Okay.

Jonny Nastor: 99% Invisible I’m going to say. Roman Mars. The discussion we had in the main topic is based around his keynote presentation that he did at the Podcast Movement. He has a brilliant show. It’s at 175 episodes now. Really, you could start at any one you wanted to, but a new one just came out today called The Sunshine Hotel. That’s my recommendation for the day.

Start there and check out, this is somebody who’s literally taken it from a terrible hobby to a great job.

Jerod Morris: Very nice. Once you’re done checking out those episodes, of course, make sure you check out ShowrunnerCourse.com. See everything that is inside the course, and remember, there are only a few days left to get the course if you’re listening to this episode on the day it comes out.

If you’re listening a day or two after, there may only be hours left to get in. We’re not exactly sure when we’re going to re-open the course again, so go to ShowrunnerCourse.com. Registration ends Friday, August 14th. We would love to work with you and help you develop, launch, and run your remarkable show. Get in there. Check it out. That’s all I got.

Jonny Nastor: Yes.

It was a great ending. I liked it.

Jerod Morris: Oh, thank you.

Jonny Nastor: It was good. It was a good call to action. It was solid. You trailed off a bit at the end, but that’s okay. It was good. The opening of the course is trailing off, so it really kind of brought it full circle.

Jerod Morris: I thought about outsourcing the ending. I don’t know if I have time to do these anymore.

Jonny Nastor: We’ll get one of those infomercial guys to come on and do the big ending for us. That’d be amazing.

Jerod Morris: That would be awesome. We could get the movie trailer guy to do The Showrunner course.

Jonny Nastor: Ooh, that would be cool, too.

Jerod Morris: In a world of on-demand audio content, you need a course to teach you the step-by-step system for developing, launching, and running a remarkable show.

Jonny Nastor: And we no longer need him. That was awesome. That now goes at the end of every episode.

Jerod Morris: It’s going to have to.

Jonny Nastor: Wow. This episode is going to be a hard one for Toby to edit. Sorry, Toby.

Jerod Morris: Nah, he’ll get it.

Jonny Nastor: I didn’t even know when we actually started it, or if we started it.

Jerod Morris: Oh, no. No. We still have to do the start. We have to do the opening.