Should You Really ‘Walk in the Direction of Your Fear’?

We are often told to “walk in the direction of our fears.” But is that really good advice? Is it possible our fears know something we don’t … and that we should listen to them?

In this episode of The Lede, the third in our Hero versus Villain series, Jerod and Demian take up this debate — and yes, another special guest is invited.

You’ll learn about Jerod’s fear of clowns, Demian’s fear of public speaking, and you’ll get to relive the terrifying moment when one of conversion expert Joanna Wiebe’s biggest fears manifested itself in ten unwelcome gray hairs.

And, of course, we answer the question: is “walk in the direction of your fears” really good advice?

Find out all of this and more on the latest episode of The Lede …

[episode no=”86″]

The Show Notes



Jerod: Demian revealed to the audience that he hates clowns.

Demian: No, no. That’s Jerod who’s afraid of clowns.

Jerod: So, a host of The Lede may hypothetically not like clowns, and someone asked ‘Okay, so why don’t you just go to clown school and get over this?’

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Lede, a podcast about content marketing by Copyblogger Media, that is hosted by me, Jerod Morris, the VP of Marketing for Rainmaker FM, and Demian Farnworth, Copyblogger’s chief content writer and the host of the smash hit new Rainmaker FM podcast “Rough Draft.”

If you have not listened to Demian’s new show on Rainmaker FM, it is a daily podcast that is geared toward writers. He has already covered issues of search engine optimization and headline writing, and overcoming internet obscurity, and it is literally one of the hottest new podcasts in the business section on iTunes. If you have not listened, I highly recommend that you check it out. Demian’s doing a great job with it, and so it is my honor to call him a co-host on The Lede because pretty soon he’ll be bigger and better than all of us and won’t have time for little, old The Lede anymore. But while he still does we will enjoy having him here to impart his wisdom on us. But really, go check out Rough Draft, if you haven’t. It’s a great podcast, and Demian does a great job with it, as we all would expect that he would from his work here on The Lede.

So today is actually a very big day. It is March 31, 2015. That’s when this podcast is officially being released, and the reason why this is a big day is because it is actually the final day when early-bird pricing for Authority Rainmaker is available. So if you go to you will actually see the agenda, which has been posted. So you’ll get to see all the different speakers, what they’re talking about.

The keynotes, like I’ve told you, are Henry Rollins, Dan Pink, Sally Hogshead, and Chris Brogan. And there are many other speakers, of course, like Sonia Simone and Danny Sullivan and Shawn D’Souza. I’ll be speaking as well. You can see what everybody’s going to be speaking about, and then you can actually get a ticket at the early bird price. And obviously once tomorrow hits, once April hits, that price will go up. But at least for today, you can get that early bird price.

Demian and I, as we have been telling you for many episodes in a row now, we’d love to see you there. If you were at Authority Intensive last year, you know all about this conference. It’s a single-track conference. It is basically a curated conference where the content is designed to basically take you through everything that you need to execute a successful content marketing strategy, and so it is unique in that way. It is especially useful in that way.

And so if you’re looking for a conference for 2015, we would love to have you join us in Denver in May. And if you’re thinking about it, go to and get that early-bird price. And if you are hearing this episode after March 31, just shoot me an e-mail: I don’t know if there’s any way to get you any kind of discount after that, but since those decisions haven’t been made yet but this is going to press on the 31st, just shoot me an e-mail. And if there’s any way to get you the early-bird price, or get you another type of discount because you still want to go, I’ll be able to let you know yea or nay that way. And either way, we can at least have a nice, pleasant e-mail exchange so we both win.

Okay. So on this episode of The Lede we have the third of our Hero versus Villain series that we started when The Lede came over here to Rainmaker.FM. And in our first two episodes in this series, we talked about whether authority is earned or bestowed. We discussed whether the advice to choose yourself is actually good advice, and as Demian teased on the last episode, today we are going to talk about walking in the direction of our fear, and is that actually good advice or not. So we’re going to get to that in a second.

But I do actually have some interesting results to share with you about the first episode that we did, about whether authority is earned or bestowed. And this is based both on Twitter conversations and a poll that Demian did, and basically you all have chimed in. And what you have said is that my argument was far superior to the one posited by both Demian and Sean. And so I thank you for making me feel good about that, giving me some bragging rights around the virtual office. And actually, I say that somewhat in jest because really, the majority of the opinion that I heard is basically that it’s not necessarily that authority is either earned or bestowed, it’s that a combination of the two is the best and what typically happens when someone has success. And frankly, I think if you listen to that episode we kind of came to that conclusion toward the end of it, even though we started out on opposite ends. But I think that’s really the most reasonable way to look at that topic, and that’s really the feedback that a lot of you gave us. But I do appreciate you voting more for earned in the poll, because like I said, bragging rights around the virtual office are never a bad thing. So I will take that.

So with that said, let’s move along to this episode. We have a very special guest again, as we have for the last two episodes. A special guest pops up in this one as well. I won’t spoil the surprise right now. You’ll just have to listen on. But here is my conversation with Demian Farnworth, host of the smash hit podcast Rough Draft, talking about walking in the direction of your fear. Enjoy, everybody.

So Demian, at the end of our last episode, you said “travel in the direction of your fear.” You were kind of being cryptic about what the next episode, this current episode, would be about. And I am approaching this episode now with trepidation because I really don’t want to talk about clowns.

Damien Farnworth: Mmmmmm…

Jerod: Because if I’m going to be traveling in the direction of my fear, that means I am going toward clowns, and…

Demian: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So clowns scare you?

Jerod: I–yes. I do not like clowns. There are a couple of reasons why. Number one, it stems from the movie “It” which I watched back when I was a kid…

Demian: Okay.

Jerod: …And Pennywise, forever, ruined clowns for me. And just something about the concept of grown people dressing up in those ridiculous costumes. I just–there’s something about it I don’t like. I don’t mean to cast aspersions on people who do that, but…

Demian: So does this mean that when you and Heather have children you will not have clowns at their birthday parties?

Jerod: Never, ever, under any circumstances. Ever.

Demian: Now I know what to get you for Christmas.

Jerod: Never. So yeah. But that’s not what we’re actually talking about, is it?

Demian: Well, it is. So…

Jerod: (Laughs)

Demian: It is. Right. So o the way I ended it, I ended it with a phrase. Like you mentioned, “Travel in the direction of your fear.” And that comes from a poet named John Berryman, and he was a 20th century, one of these 20th century Confessional poets with people like Sylvia Plath. And he was one of my favorite poets, right; and he was just a tragic figure though. He was an alcoholic, couldn’t hold a job, wrote beautiful poetry. One of his best works is called The Dream Songs. But he ultimately killed himself, ended his life when he was 63, much like Hemmingway. And so I always was fascinated by that sort of contradiction. He said, “Travel in the direction of your fear.” Well, he clearly could not deal with his demons in that sense, right?

And so the question then becomes, and that’s what this episode is about, we’re doing this sort of hero/villain dichotomy where one of us chooses the hero position, and the other person chooses the sort of devil’s advocate, and so the topic we’re talking about is that idea of “should we travel in the direction of our fear, or should we not?”

Jerod: And where do you stand on it? What’s your overall feeling about it?

Demian: So much like the last episode, where the topic got me very exercised …

Jerod: Yes.

Demian: I get what people are saying. If something scares us, then I guess — it’s hard. Here’s the thing that we see a lot. So let’s take the blogging publishing world, for example, right? And our friend James Altucher, he says if it scares you, then publish it, right? But in my mind, it’s like that’s kind of crazy. Because James has sort of carved out a career doing that, but is that really sound advice for the rest of us? Because — I mean, think about what that has to do to a person. I mean, that would be exhausting to begin with because you’re making yourself very vulnerable, throwing yourself out there, and saying things that you know you’re going to get criticism for. And I’m all for criticism, but if you’re going to be a lightning rod, at what point though do you say, ‘This is just insane.’ And how cautious should we be in that particular mind frame?

Jerod: And I think in a macro sense, he’s right. Because I think if what you’re putting out there doesn’t scare you a little bit, then maybe — because what makes us feel comfortable? It’s the familiar.

Demian: Sure.

Jerod: And so if we’re just putting out stuff that’s familiar, and it’s safe, and it’s an idea we’ve already said so we kind of know that it’s okay. It’s not really pushing any boundaries, then there’s no fear there. I know when I have trepidation before I hit the “publish” button it’s because I’m saying something new, or like you said. I’m saying something that I know could garner criticism, or that will garner attention and will put a spotlight on me, and then all that fear comes in. The fear of judgment, and is this good enough, and all those things. But I think if you want to move forward, then this idea of moving in the direction of your fear is the way to move forward. Because otherwise you’ll just stagnate and stay safe, and stay comfortable.

Demian: Okay. So let me take your advice, and tell you, Jerod. Clowns scare you? So that’s the direction. You need to go be a clown. You need to go to clown school and you need to get over that.

Jerod: We’re talking about content marketing. Let’s stay on task. (Laughs)

Demian: (Laughs) Okay. So in a broader context though, right? So I get what people are saying, because — or do I? I don’t know if I do, because…

Jerod: Okay, no, wait. You make a good point. Let me jump in here. So you make a good point, right? Should I go to clown school to get over my fear of clowns? Well, what’s that going to do for me? That doesn’t really move me toward a goal, right? But I think if you move in the direction of your fear, when your fear is an impediment to a goal, instead of going around it or trying to seek an alternate route, that’s when you should do it. Because it doesn’t matter otherwise. Whether I get over my fear of clowns or not is never going to impact my life positively or negatively. But whether I get over…

Demian: So here’s the thing…

Jerod: … my fear of hitting “publish,” that could impact it.

Demian: All right. So let’s think about it in the sense of life improvement, because I do think you do make a good point. If something makes you uncomfortable, you’ll get stagnant, and so maybe we should be pushing out in that direction. A lot of people like to make these bucket lists, right, of things they want to do before they die. And a lot of times you’ll see things like jump out of an airplane, ride a bull, and you ask them, “so why in the world would you want to do that?” “Because it scares me.” But will it make them a better person? It’ll give them a very brief experience that they can then talk about to their children, but will it change their life at all? No. I don’t think so. It won’t do it at all.

Jerod: No, unless it just makes them comfortable with that idea of facing a fear and doing — because there is something to be said for getting outside of your comfort zone.

Demian: Yeah, I agree.

Jerod: That can be scary. And so just getting experience being outside of your comfort zone. So like we were talking beforehand, before we started this, about public speaking. And you talking about your philosophy on it, and what you learned from Joanna Wiebe at Copy Hackers. Maybe that’d be an interesting place to go with this, because I think that’s kind of what we’re talking about.

Demian: Yes! I’m glad you brought that up, because let me tell you — do you want to bring her on, and then we can talk about it?

Jerod: What, you mean just call her right now?

Demian: Yeah. See if she’s available.

Jerod: Sure. I guess that would be traveling in the direction of our fear, right? Because she could reject us.

Demian: (Laughs)

Jerod: Saying no, she doesn’t want to talk.

Demian: Not Joanna.

Jerod: Hopefully not.

Demian: Not Joanna.

Jerod: Let’s see. Joanna?

Joanna Wiebe: Hello!

Jerod: Hey, what’s happening?

Joanna: What’s happening? What’s going on?

Demian: Okay. So I’m glad you’re there. Thank you for taking our call. So we’re talking about this topic called “traveling in the direction of your fear,” right? And so I’m thinking of it like it’s conventional wisdom, but it’s sort of an absurd thing that can be taken too far. And so I was about to give this example of my fear of public speaking, right? So early in my career I went towards that fear, and I spoke publicly, and I did that for a number of years. And it wasn’t until about 2-3 years ago that I thought to myself, “What in the world are you doing to yourself?” I would agonize. If I knew that I had an appointment or an engagement nine months out, I would agonize the nine months before then. My only glory in the whole thing was the two minutes afterwards, that I got finished. And then it was like, “I’m done. Ahh.” And so the reason I wanted to you, because I have a bone to pick with you.

Joanna: Uh-oh.

Demian: Because … yes. So I made this decision. I hate public speaking. It scares the daylights out of me, and all this anguish — why do I put myself through this? And so I’m just going to, like, tell people no. That’s just not in my wheel house. I don’t care to get better at it. I don’t care to do it, because it’s not something I enjoy. And so when I heard a rumor about you, that you have the same sort of agony about it, which surprised me. For one thing, because at Authority when you spoke last year, you did a phenomenal job and I would have never thought that you were in any type of anguish. But then — am I right, though? Does public speaking scare you?

Joanna: Oh, I was disastrous inside. Yeah. It’s a nightmare.

Demian: Okay.

Joanna: Nothing’s changed. It’s still as awful as it was before, but now I’m going to make myself do it.

Demian: Yes! I don’t understand that. So here’s the thing, right? This is what happened. So Jerod, here’s a short story.

Jerod: Okay.

Demian: So I’m admiring Joanna from afar, and I hear this about her, and then read on her blog — or I think I hear this rumor from somebody that she’s not going to do it because it causes her a lot of pain, and there’s no point. And I’m like, “Oh, great; I’ve got somebody I can commiserate with!” Then I go on her blog, and she says she’s going to do it. She’s like, 2015 is going to be the year that she’s going to fight this demon. And I’m like, “Joanna, what are you doing? I don’t even want to talk to you anymore!”

Joanna: (Laughing) Hey!

Jerod: (Laughs) Well, we called you. So clearly he didn’t hold onto that.

Joanna: Yeah. He got over that.

Demian: I don’t want to misunderstand. Help us understand the thought process behind that. Because clearly, you decided “Hey, we’re going to travel in the direction of this fear.”

Joanna: Yes. Yes. So it was a long road to get there, and I totally hear you. I wrote on my blog about how it’s something that I’m going to do because it makes me really uncomfortable, and it seems that if I’m going to get better at things, it’s only by making myself uncomfortable. And that’s the most for me. The most dramatic example of being uncomfortable. Because, just like you, you have that period leading up to it.

Like for the Authority Intensive last year, I did rounds of AB testing with people solely for the purpose of putting together this presentation so I could rely on data. So people are looking at the screen, that they might not be looking at me. But that was it, right? Like you get so scared. I wrote about this as well. I counted when I went to speak at Business of Software. It was the morning, and I was getting ready, and I pushed my hair aside, and I have, like, ten gray hairs. And I’m like, “What? Where did those come from?” I’d never had a gray hair, and then suddenly I have ten all at once, just staring at me! So I was like, okay. I’m putting myself through all this stress. I’m not really sure why. Like, what’s my goal? And I had a really hard time understanding what the goal is of speaking outside of — unless you’re growing a consultancy or something. I couldn’t understand why you’d put yourself through that. And then I was talking,–this is a long answer, I know, right…

Jerod: No, you’re doing great.

Joanna: When I was at CTA Conf I was sitting there. I was standing with Ollie from Unbounce and with Tiffany from Shopify. We were talking about getting ready to go on. We were all standing there, and I was talking about how nervous I get. And then they were saying how nervous they get, and I was like, “Well, nobody gets as nervous as I do, though.” And they’re like, “No, no!” Each of them was talking about how they’ve been physically sick in the past before going on. And I was like, “Okay, but they keep doing it.” And I guess I haven’t been so bad that I’ve ever been physically sick about it, and I know that it’s a huge stress, and all that stuff.

But there is that moment when you’re on the stage and you feel good about what’s happening, and then afterward people do increasingly respect you, I guess, as a thought leader or something like that. But it feels like, “Okay, well if they’re doing it, and they’re getting physically ill over it, and they’re doing really well with their respective businesses and what they’re doing. Maybe there’s something there. Maybe although I can’t see it right now, maybe there’s a good reason to keep doing it?” And now we’ve just launched our agency called Snap, and now I look at it like — and I wrote about this, too — I look at Snap kind of the way a mother might look at her child. I think of it that way, at least. I don’t know if that’s — people who are actually mothers might be like, “You’re wrong!” But that’s how I feel about it.

(Jerod and Demian chuckle)

Joanna: And so I would — what wouldn’t you do for your child to help it grow and get better? And that’s kind of where I’m at. I’m like, “Okay, this is going to suck. It’s going to be so nightmarish. But I’m going to do it, because it might actually help me turn this little business into one that is helping a lot of businesses and doing great things. So that’s why I’m there, but now you’re making me question everything.

Jerod: No, no, no. Don’t start questioning.

(Demian and Joanna chuckle)

Jerod: And okay, maybe this is the important distinction to make, and this is what we were talking about before we brought you on, Joanna. As you just said, you’re passionate about your ideas. You have this business that you’re developing, and speaking can help you further that. If you give in to your fear, that is an impediment to growing your business, to spreading these ideas. So we’re talking before, and Demian revealed to the audience that he’s deathly afraid of clowns. He hates clowns.

Demian: No, no. That’s Jerod who’s afraid of clowns.

Jerod: So a host of The Lede may hypothetically not like clowns, and someone asked, “Okay, so why don’t you just go to clown school and get over this?” And the important distinction is, that doesn’t make a difference, right? Like traveling in the direction of that fear means nothing. But for you, with this, with speaking, it is. Now I guess the question I would pose to you, Demian, is when it comes to not speaking, what goal is that keeping you from? Because maybe that isn’t a fear that you need to travel in the direction of, because the potential gain or potential benefit isn’t great enough, so maybe it’s not something you need to feel bad about. Whereas Joanna had a goal strong enough to make her overcome that.

Demian: No, I don’t feel bad about the decision. Because that was ultimately what it was. It was like, “What am I gaining out of this?” Because it ultimately came to the — I remember I got this e-mail from this guy who hosted these events. It’s actually in Canada, and he’s near the Banff National Mountains up there. And he wanted me to come speak there on copywriting, and this is after I’d already sort of told my wife. I was like, “Remind me that I don’t want to speak anymore in public, okay?”

Joanna: Oh my gosh. I told Lance that exact thing. Anyway, keep going though.

Demian: Right. But he sends me this e-mail. “I love you. I want to bring you up here. We’re near Banff.” And I love mountains. I’ve always wanted to go to Banff. And all I could think about was going to Banff and just crawling through that national park, right? And I told them yes.

Joanna: Oh!

Demian: And then, after that, I go back and I tell my wife, and she’s like, “You told me to remind you … ” And I’m like, “Yeah, you’re right,” and I go to bed that night, and I’m thinking about Banff. That’s all I can think about, was the mountains.

(Joanna and Jerod chuckle)

Demian: And I come back the next day, and shoot them e-mails. “You know what? I don’t think I’m your man.” And that is ultimately, Jerod, what it came down to. It’s not serving any purpose. I don’t enjoy it, and I’ve got a great — I mean, could it elevate my visibility, my authority? Possibly. But it could also hurt it, because I don’t think I’m a very good speaker.

The one thing, though, that you said that I thought was really insightful, Joanna. You said that you prepared insanely a lot for Authority. And I find myself doing that a lot. Even just for a blog post, and this is what we were kind of talking about before you came on. I want to make sure — and part of that fear is like, I’m afraid of people saying, “You’re a fraud, you don’t know what you’re talking about.” And so in order to overcome that and overcompensate that fear, I still go in that direction because I feel that writing is my wheelhouse and that’s the way I can contribute to the world. And so I do that, but in order to compensate for that anxiety is to prepare as much as I can.

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. I’m the same way, and I think that, yeah. It’s reflected in your blog posts. I think it’s mostly reflected in ours too, right? This need to make sure that you’re coming off the way that you most want to. Right? Absolutely. And I think that kind of goes without saying, but it does mean a lot of work up front, which is a big undertaking.

I talk to people — I was talking to Noah Kegan, and I hope he doesn’t mind me mentioning this, about how you have to take a week off as well when you’re going and doing a public talk, right? You have the three days leading up to it, which you’re completely dead to the world because your head is somewhere else, and then the four days — at least four days afterward — where you’re trying to catch up again because you have all of these business cards and contacts and things afterward, and you haven’t even done anything with your business for a whole week. But it just speaks to that huge undertaking that it is, and that it better be the right thing to do, or there’s a lot of time that’s taken out of your life, not to mention all the gray hairs that you get.

Demian: That’s right. And the other thing too is, this is one of the reasons why I don’t publish on my own blog, or even with Copyblogger, on a daily basis. For each one, I want to make sure that I’m not just spouting stuff to make myself look bad.

Jerod: So again, I think it’s an important distinction, this idea of traveling in the direction of your fear. Demian, you’ve alluded to this, and so have you, Joanna. You’re traveling in the direction of it, but you’re also being motivated by it. You’re channeling the fear into motivation that makes you better. Like Demian. You wouldn’t want to start — you’re afraid of posting every day, so just start posting every day without researching. I mean, that’s dumb, right? So the statement may need a little bit more nuance to be kind of universally applicable, but I still think the general idea is correct because, as we started off the show with, the only way to really grow is to get outside of your comfort zone. A lot of times that’s a little bit scary, but going in the direction of that fear, as long as you channel it in the right way, is usually going to be a good thing.

Demian: Yeah. Joanna, thank you so much for letting me be neurotic for a moment.

Joanna: Thanks for listening to my crazy story! That’s awesome. Cool.

Demian: I love it. No, thank you for a spare moment, just jumping on too. You were a blessing.

Jerod: Yes, thank you. You know what, Joanna? It just dawned on me that we’ve had you on The Lede twice now, I think, and both times we were talking about fear. Because last time you were telling us about how to overcome the fear of getting people to click on buttons…

Joanna: Oh, right!

Jerod: … and now we’re talking about overcoming fear in the general sense.

Joanna: What does that say about me? Everybody thinks I’m, like, the scaredest person on the planet or something.

Jerod: No! You are inspiring, and that you are a source of empowerment for people to get over fear. That’s what it shows.

Joanna: (Laughing) Let’s end on that high note. I can walk away with a big old ego after that.

Demian: That’s right.

Jerod: Exactly. All right. Thank you, Joanna. Hopefully we’ll see you soon.

Joanna: Thanks, guys! Okay. Sounds cool.

Demian: Take care. Thank you so much.

Jerod: Bye.

Demian: Bye.

Joanna: Thank you. Bye.

Jerod: So there we go. That was great. Do you feel better?

Demian: Yeah, I think so. And I think one of the things that I was sort of concluding, we’re three in on this sort of hero/villain thing, is that my problem, I think, with these phrases is that often these proverbs, or these little maxims that become conventional wisdom is that, like you said. There’s such a nuance behind them that you just can’t take them at face value. So I hope, in a sense, this has been helpful. I know it’s been helpful to me as we mentioned earlier. I want to get a perspective on the other side of the argument and the debate in order to help see better what I’m missing.

Jerod: Yeah. I think, again, like we said with this. It’s nuance, and just to give a quick example from my own recent past, the side project, the postgame Show that I’ve talked about before. So we got called out on the radio, on Indianapolis Radio, by this guy. Turned out he had us either mixed up with someone else — I don’t know. He said something that wasn’t true. Whatever. Anyway, it led to me wanting to post something, kind of a response on our blog.

Demian: Right.

Jerod: And initially that idea really scared me because I wanted to say what we stand for, kind of plant our flag in the ground. And it kind of scared me, because you’re putting yourself out there, and it’s like, “Well man, now we’re going to have to hold ourselves accountable to this, and other people can hold us accountable to this, and do we want to put this out there? And he might make fun of it,” and all of these different things. But I finally said no, you know what? Even if he never reads this, it’s useful for our audience to see it. It will allow us to build a better connection. So let me get over that fear, and let me put this out there.

So I wrote it, read it over a couple of times for proofreads. So I got over the fear in the macro sense. I knew we were going to publish something, but then right before I hit “publish,” you know, and me, my general mode of being is just to kind of go and do, and sometimes I have to make sure I stop myself. And so fortunately, there was a little bit of fear right before I hit “publish” because I’m like, “Wait…I’d better make sure that this is really what I want to say and there are no other errors,” so I sent it to the two guys who co-host with me. And they both had great additions to something I should take out, and something I should add. Which brought the whole thing together. It would not have worked as well without that.

So I’m glad that there was that small micro-impediment to me hitting “publish” that I was afraid of, and I’m glad I indulged that, because it made it better. But I’m glad that I overcame the bigger fear and got it out there, because overcoming that fear was a good thing. And I explain this just because that idea that this is nuance, and that context is important, and you have to, at some point I guess, kind of start to develop those instincts, especially when it comes to publishing content and putting ideas out there. In the macro sense, if they’re good ideas and you believe in them, and you’ve worked hard at them, get them out there. But I think it’s okay to give in to a little bit of that fear about hitting “publish” if you channel it to say, “Let me fact check. Let me make sure this is buttoned up.”

Demian: Right.

Jerod: “Let me make sure that it’s devoid of errors.” So it’s kind of a balance, but ultimately I think that’s where I come down on this one. That it’s a good thing, but you’ve just got to understand nuance.

Demian: You say it’s a good thing. So I’m going to challenge you, right? So this is at the point we have to sort of transition and talk about the Authority Rainmaker event. So what I think we should do, because we talked about what we’re going to do at the event. We did the door greeting last year, and we’re going to do the door greeting this year. We should do it in clown suits.

Jerod: Gah … Can I just hit “stop” on this?

Demian: It’s for your mental health, Jerod.

Jerod: All right. Maybe. But you know what? Maybe we’ll do that. But for people to find out, they’re going to have to come to Denver and then, I guess, if we’re waiting there at the door in clown suits greeting people, then they’ll know that …

Demian: You’re getting stronger.

Jerod: … that I traveled in the direction of my fear. (Laughs) But seriously. People should come. It’s May 13 through the 15. Come. Joanna spoke last year. She won’t be there this year, but there are many, many other great perspectives who will be there. You’ve heard us talk about them: Henry Rollins, and Dan Pink, and Bernadette Jiwa, Sally Hogshead, Sonia Simone, and Ann Hanley. So many great people will be speaking. And I will say this, because this is relevant: I know I sometimes have fears of these big networking events because I just don’t really feel that confident in the whole work-a-room thing and all that stuff. Sometimes that makes me a little uncomfortable. But if anybody feels like that, and it makes you want to not go to a big event like this, get over that fear. Because this is a great group. It’s a welcoming group. And you’re going to be with like-minded people who care about the same things you care about, if you’re listening to this podcast. So don’t let that fear prevent you from going.

Demian: That’s right. And it’ll be a lot of fun. If you see me sitting by myself, it’s not because I’m a rude, arrogant person. It’s because I’m introverting, and I love, and I would be happy to talk if you just come over and sit and talk to me.

Jerod: Absolutely. I’ll do that if I see you sitting over there.

Demian: Thank you so much. So next episode: I’ll leave you with two words. Content shock.

Jerod: Ooh. Okay. I’m intrigued. We’ll talk about it next week.

Demian: Sounds good. Thanks, Jerod.

Jerod: See ya.

Thank you all very much for listening to this episode of The Lede. Again, if you’re listening to this on the day it is released, March 31, 2015, that is the final day that early-bird pricing is available for Authority Rainmaker. So go to Get your ticket. And if for some reason you are listening to this after March 31, just shoot me an e-mail: And if there are any late-comer discounts or anything like that, I’ll be able to get them to you. I don’t know that there will be, so I’m not making a promise. But just shoot me an e-mail, because at the very least I can give you whatever the latest information is.

But I do hope to see a lot of you there. So go check it out. See if the agenda works for you. See if the dates work for you. And if they do, come join the best party in content marketing, because certainly Copyblogger is known for that when we throw events. The parties are good, and certainly at this event the information, the experts who are there, the networking–it’s all going to be good. So I can’t wait for it, and I can’t wait to see a lot of you there with us.

All right, everybody. This has been another episode of The Lede. We will be back next week with the fourth installment of our hero vs. villain series, and as Demian teased, that episode is going to be about content shock and you won’t want to miss it. Because we actually have a special guest for that one, and we interrupt him eating tacos, which makes for an interesting exchange.

All right, everybody. We’ll talk to you next week.

# # #